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Ireland: Disgust in Dingle

 
 
patiodog
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2005 10:08 pm
Ah, well, whatcha gonna do? I've got bits that are English and Scots, and the wife is half-Welsh -- but no Erse, so I guess I shouldn't be making the joke anywho...
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Kara
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Aug, 2005 02:13 am
Checking in. Thanks for the link, osso.

I have watched this controversy about Dingle come to a head this summer and have read many letters to the Irish Times, some of which are wonderfully witty. I like the Irish form of Dingle (spelling not to hand at the minute) but that is really not the issue. It had been in the back of my mind that Dingle is a very old name and might be original. Someone here has just confirmed that.

I have had a home here for so long that I know the Irish name for many villages even if they are not double posted. Maigh Cuillin and Sraith Salach come to mind. I have never seen Moy Cullen or Recess on a road sign although few use the Irish name, at least within my hearing.

I wonder, with Jo, why double-posting would be a problem. The Irish could be larger and bold faced, with the English in smaller letters. There are other related problems with signage in An Gaeltecht, such as road warning about new road chippings only in Irish! So we unwarned non-readers could claim discrimination if we have a smashed windscreen? Or could a reader be held liable, and a non-reader not, for slowing down to the posted speed?

More difficult to adjust to, although off topic, is the new hard line on KPH/MPH. We knew it was coming but this is cold turkey indeed. All hired cars have dropped the dual readings and the road signs are only in KPH.

With Irish now an offical language of the Republic, the EU must translate all of its documents into Irish. Surely, the Gaels are proud of such evidence of their linguistic existence.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Aug, 2005 02:20 am
My experience in the west country was that all the speakers of the Gaelic spoke English perfectly well, and employed the Gaelic for the opportunity to speak ill of you to your face, and you none the wiser (except that some gobshite was always present who could not resist telling just how badly you were being slagged . . . )
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Kara
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Aug, 2005 02:58 am
Ah, indeed, Setanta. That happens in the US with Spanish speakers, I've found. The muttered comments they make within your hearing are surely not complimentary.
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Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Aug, 2005 03:32 am
Perhaps those mithons were murmuring prayers for the salvation of your soul. No?

Joe(Pass those rosery beads over here.)Nation
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Sep, 2005 01:36 pm
Quote:
There's a ring to Dingle, Irish say

By Brian Lavery International Herald Tribune
MONDAY, SEPTEMBER 5, 2005


DINGLE, Ireland Everyone knows that it's a long way to Tipperary. But how far is An Daingean?

Six months ago, the picturesque harbor town called Dingle, in a remote corner of southwestern Ireland, became officially known by a Gaelic version of its name - pronounced awn-DANG-in. An Daingean, which means The Fortress, will eventually replace Dingle, which means Valley, on road signs and in government paperwork.

The change has been heralded by champions of Gaelic, the ancient tongue known for its bulky strings of unpronounced letters, which is spoken fluently by a small minority of Irish people.

More than 2,300 places in the dwindling areas where Irish, as it is called here, is still in daily use are now referred to only by Gaelic names.

But Dingle is in County Kerry, and its people pride themselves on their independence. The residents are resentful of a decision that they say was imposed on them by Dublin, hundreds of miles away.

"It was thrown upon us with the stroke of a pen," said Fergus O Flaithbheartaigh, working at his popular pub in the town. His name is often seen in its Anglicized form, O'Flaherty, and the Gaelic version - many letters longer - is pronounced much the same way.

Liam O'Neill, a painter who grew up outside Dingle, did not learn to speak English until he was 14. Commenting on the name change, he invoked the hated history of the British imposition of English on Ireland. "It was like the way Cromwell did it," he said. "People have taken to the trenches about it now."

But perhaps most of all, the people of Dingle fear that the move will befuddle tourists already confused by the country's bilingual - or missing - road signs.

Ever since Dingle was used as the setting of the film "Ryan's Daughter" in 1970, it has relied on tourism like no other place in Ireland. About half of its 1,500 residents work in the sector, and during summer months visitors outnumber locals by six to one. And most tourists asked recently were disappointed to learn that they were officially in An Daingean rather than Dingle.

"One of the reasons people come here is because the language isn't a barrier," said Shawn Foldesy, 29, a visitor from Dallas who was traveling through Ireland with friends. She said the town's whimsical-sounding name "probably had more of an effect on our coming here than we think."

"Dingle is something that captures the imagination," said Michael Finn, 75, on vacation from Williamsburg, Virginia. His wife, Antoinette, added, "It just gives me a feeling of lightness."

Local business owners say that they have worked for decades to build up the impression of a place that mixes quirkiness with tradition in a beautiful natural setting, an impression that they say will be damaged by the switch to An Daingean, which does not have quite the same ring as Dingle.

"It absolutely is a brand," said Susan Callery, owner of the Green Lane art gallery. "I've spent 15 years working on it."

The debate is part of a national argument over how to protect Ireland's native language.

The country's 2002 census found that 43 percent of the population spoke Gaelic, but officials admit that the figure is exaggerated because it includes children, who study the language as a mandatory school subject, and because adults with little fluency may have marked themselves down as speaking the language.

Officials in the department that oversees Irish-speaking areas point out that business names will not be affected, only road signs.

The government minister behind the change, Eamon O Cuiv, said recently that locals could still call the town whatever they wanted - Dingle, or Beverly Hills, or, he suggested, Fungi. That is the name of a dolphin that has returned to the harbor year after year and has many fans.

Some linguists have other problems with the change. "It is a bit dangerous to begin tampering with something that's so well known," said Terry Dolan, a professor at University College Dublin who recently published a dictionary of Hiberno-English. "It's manipulating the language from the top down."

For the record, O Flaithbheartaigh said that the national government had chosen the wrong name for the town, which is also known as Daingean Ui Chuis, or Fortress of the Husseys (named after a clan).

But at least some Dingle residents are taking the change in stride.

"We're enjoying the notoriety," said the Reverend Padraig O Fiannachta, 78, a Roman Catholic priest and Gaelic scholar who grew up in Dingle and who insisted that he would still use the familiar name while singing his favorite ballad, "The Dingle Puck Goat."

Source
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Heeven
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Sep, 2005 02:40 pm
I just found this thread - hadn't heard about this until now and initially was throwing the eyes to heaven with the sheer pain-in-the-arsedness that some people seem intent on inflicting.

Personally I know Dingle as Dingle as much as I know it as An Daingean. Either name works for me. I do like the inclusion of the Irish language on all signs and the like throughout Ireland, a bit of heritage and whatnot. I went to the gaeltacht like a good little Irish girl and loved it. Enjoyed HAVING to speak nothing but Irish for several weeks and the comraderie and stories and education went down well. I also admit to being a Dubliner who felt that the Irish language was dying and did nothing to use it on even an occasional basis - guilty guilty guilty. If someone walked up to me and started speaking Irish I'd be lost. Having said that, like many European countries, Ireland wants to have it's heritage and language continue and make them individual - nothing wrong with that, fully support it in fact. I love the little differences in all our cultures, makes things spicey! But refusing to attach the English version on signs in the Gaeltacht, even making one tiny exception for the name Dingle, which is so well-known world-wide, is a bit hard-arsed to say the least. If Mr. mini De Valera wants to turn Ireland, starting with the gaeltacht area, into an Irish-speaking, reading, writing country again then I think the Irish people need to vote on it like a good republican country. If the majority of people want it then away ya go, change it. If they don't, well tell Mr. Eamon O Cuiv, away with ya, this is not supposed to be a country ruled by dictators. Perhaps the minister of the gaeltacht might confer with the minister of tourism and any other minister to see if his rules and regulations are really in the best interests and promotion of Ireland.

Kind of reminds me of the FCC in America at the moment - telling us what we can see, hear, etc.

Having said all that I am in split down the middle on this issue. I don't mind the name being permanently changed to An Daingean. Yes it's going to be a pain in the arse for tourists but if they are to visit any country foreign to theirs they have to expect to adapt to that culture and language. It could be a stumbling block initially but it could have been gradually done so that tourists could get used to the change somewhat. On the other hand the entirety of Ireland does not speak Irish daily and the whole of the country should be taken into consideration. Since the main spoken language is English, all signs should be in Irish AND English … at least until the country votes to ban English and go back to being 100% Irish-speaking country.

<<Stepping off soap-box>>
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Kara
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Sep, 2005 02:50 pm
Hear, hear Heeven. I'm all for the two names on road signs. English in smaller font if it makes them happy.

Good piece, Walter. Isn't it silly, though, what the Dallas woman said? Surely she didn't fly for six thousand miles just because the place was called Dingle. If so, she's an eejit that the country can do well without.

Joe Nation, thanks for the nice twist. From now on, I'll assume they are saying their beads and I'll smile upon them with benevolence.
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ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Sep, 2005 02:51 pm
This is reminding me a bit of Firenze - extremely well known in the English language and literature as Florence.
All the road signs say Firenze. Maps come in various languages for varying tourists.

I know, english is not the language of Italy, so it isn't the same situation - but the jump tourists have to make to the word Firenze is the same, isn't it? To me, no big deal.

That said, I don't quite get that road signs in that area of Ireland only have the gaelic word (though didn't Kara say that wasn't true across the board?) Seems at least reasonable there would be a popular vote on the matter.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Sep, 2005 03:48 pm
Well, osso, I think, road and town signs are generally in the country's language - I mean, you don't write Sankt Franziskus or Saint Francis instead of San Francisco either. :wink:

In Éire , btw, Irish is declared as "the national language" and "the first official language", and English as "a second official language" (Article 8 of the constitution).
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Heeven
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Sep, 2005 03:59 pm
Aah, but unlike most other countries that have their own languages, most Irish people cannot speak or understand Irish. Yes it is taught in schools, as a language, but most schools teach all other subjects in the English language. If Irish were the true first language then all subjects - history, geography, science, mathematics, etc., - should all be taught via Irish. That is not the case. Unofficially, English is the main language of Ireland.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Sep, 2005 04:11 pm
That's correct - as well as that Irish is an official language of the European Union, too.


But you can't have a popular vote on it other than changing the constitution. :wink:
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ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Sep, 2005 04:25 pm
Yes, Walter, I said as much.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Sep, 2005 04:28 pm
You mean, changing the Irish constituion to get English as national and first language? Shocked
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ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Sep, 2005 04:58 pm
No, that English is not the language of Italy - so I shouldn't expect italian signs to have city names in other languages...
my point being, in that post, that it was not hard for me to learn to use a name for the city other than one I'd heard all my life.

With Ireland, I guess I forgot, if I did know, that Irish is the official language of the country. Heeven's explanation of the language habits fits my perception.

If it is the official language (by the constitution?) it sounds like the implications of that haven't floated down to the populace uniformly.

This is of course none of my business, just interesting to me.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Sep, 2005 11:57 pm
ossobuco wrote:
If it is the official language (by the constitution?) it sounds like the implications of that haven't floated down to the populace uniformly.


Right, as I said, on the previous site, Irish is the national language:


Quote:
Article 8

1. The Irish language as the national language is the first official language.

2. The English language is recognised as a second official language.
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Kara
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2005 06:00 am
Osso, Walter did not say that Irish is the national language of Ireland. He said that it is AN official language of Ireland, as is English. It was only recently that Irish was declared an official language, resulting in the enormous and costly task of translating all EU documents into Irish, as is done with all languages declared to be official national languages of EU countries.

The insistence by many Irish that Gaelic remain taught and used is a result, to my mind, of a lingering hatred of the British and the English language they "forced upon" the Irish. I think this reminiscent anger that is part of the culture of the ROI could be reflected in road signs with the historic Irish name in large size letters, perhaps in emerald green, with a plainer and smaller English translation below it.
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ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2005 10:14 am
Quoting myself -
This is reminding me a bit of Firenze - extremely well known in the English language and literature as Florence.
All the road signs say Firenze. Maps come in various languages for varying tourists.

I know, english is not the language of Italy, so it isn't the same situation - but the jump tourists have to make to the word Firenze is the same, isn't it? To me, no big deal. When I said that I had it in mind that the Irish speak english, having forgotten past discussion about any laws about gaelic.

That said, I don't quite get that road signs in that area of Ireland only have the gaelic word (though didn't Kara say that wasn't true across the board?) Seems at least reasonable there would be a popular vote on the matter.



Quoting Walter -
Well, osso, I think, road and town signs are generally in the country's language - I mean, you don't write Sankt Franziskus or Saint Francis instead of San Francisco either.

In Éire , btw, Irish is declared as "the national language" and "the first official language", and English as "a second official language" (Article 8 of the constitution).




I had been trying to express that as an American going to one country, I wouldn't expect road signs in italy to use the english words for cities, and found it simple to understand the italian words.
In Ireland, I would have expected road signs in English (in years past, before I knew about the return to the use of Gaelic), and I still would expect both gaelic and english on a sign. And I am still aware it's not my business.

I don't care if language law is in the Irish Constitution or is a parliamentary decree or a regional governmental choice, whichever one is not my business - I merely hope that people get a voice in the decisions such as road signage.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Oct, 2006 10:54 pm
Quote:
Dingle fights to keep its name

· Port holds referendum on switch to Irish version
· Change could confuse tourists, locals claim


Owen Bowcott, Ireland correspondent
Thursday October 19, 2006
The Guardian


A referendum to decide whether a remote fishing port formerly known as Dingle can readopt its anglicised name has become a battleground for the future of the Irish language. The row comes amid preparations for Irish to become an official EU language next year.
The result of what is technically a plebiscite among 1,222 Co Kerry voters is due tomorrow and is expected to reveal strong resentment towards the imposition of an Irish placename, An Daingean. The council has been replacing road signs bearing the word Dingle.


The town is within a Gaeltacht, one of the country's few designated Irish-speaking areas. The minister for rural, Gaeltacht and community affairs, Éamon O Cuív, has the power to order that only Irish place-names be used in those areas and he has warned that his department cannot act on the ballot because it is not legally possible to have an English or bilingual name in a Gaeltacht area.
But locals argue that if they win 612 votes - more than 50% - it will be a moral victory and should prompt a government rethink. The proposal in the referendum is to rebrand the port with a bilingual name: Dingle An Daingean Uí Chúis.

The owner of the Barr na Sráide pub in the port, David Geaney, said: "People feel they are being bullied. They have lived with Dingle all their lives. The fishing industry is nearly dead and farming is struggling. So 70%-80% of the town's business is in tourism. If you are a tourist and trying to find the area it will be a bit of joke if you can't find the name you recognise. We are all proud of our heritage but we want to be able to speak both [languages] and the minister is denying us the opportunity for that."

Critics warn that there is a town simply called Daingean in Co Offaly, and the name change could confuse visitors.

The chair of Dingle Peninsula Tourism, Sile Gorman, endorses the bilingual solution. "Twenty years ago our children had to emigrate because there was no employment in the area," she said. "Now, because of tourism, our children have a real choice and can remain on the peninsula." She added: "The government have spent millions promoting the Dingle peninsula brand and now they want to throw it away."

A vote by An Daingean to adopt the bilingual name would be embarrassing for the government. On January 1, Irish will become an official EU language and an advertising campaign is under way to find those qualified to do simultaneous translations for the European parliament. Six potential recruits are receiving training.

Around 100,000 people are believed to use Irish as their main language on a daily basis, and in the cities many families, particularly among the middle classes, send their children to schools where the whole curriculum is taught in Irish.

A spokeswoman for the department for rural, Gaeltacht and community affairs said: "The town name has always been An Daingean. The only thing that has changed is that the Irish form now has official status. If people want to put up tourist signs pointing to Dingle, that's fine."

Source

Photo from the print version (page 6):

http://i11.tinypic.com/2yl03t5.jpg
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Oct, 2006 11:31 pm
I thought "Dingle" came from the sound your car made after driving round the the Kerry Ring ! :wink:
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