Idealism

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Idealism

Where does it come from?

We see the world we live in, and each of us thinks of a million ways it could be "better." "Different."

What is it in us that makes us want a different world?
Where does this come from?

Why would an bipedal ape want a better or different world?

Is our idealism part of us, or does it come from somewhere else? Sometimes I have this flash of idealism come into my brain, and its almost as if its coming from somewhere else. That idealism is not me. It is not coming from me. Or is it?

What is it in us, where does this idealism spring from? Where is the fountainhead of idealism located in us? What is that?

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It's a good question. I see no reason to assume it comes from some external or mystical source. I suspect it's an adaptive feature of the brain: even some of the lowest organisms will seek out a "better world" if something is lacking in theirs. As brains evolved and some animals became capable of rudimentary abstract thought, they became able to 'imagine' a better world. Finally, with humans, who seem the most apt at abstraction, we see an animal who can not only imagine a better, more ideal world in terms of survival, but imagine a world more ideally suited to the pursuit of pleasure, fulfillment, etc.

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Idealism comes out in human consciousness sometimes in unexpected ways.

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Idealism is an offshoot of tribalism... and most idealism is just tribalism is disguise.

Tribalism (and idealism) is not unique to humans... other primates have these behaviors.

As a species becomes advanced enough to develop social behaviors, the ability to form groups with strong social/emotional ties is important. Part of these groups are shared behaviors and ways to identify with ones group.

Morals are just shared behaviors with an additional mechanism to ensure uniformity.

Religion and idealism are morals with a formal identity for ones group.

Most of these behaviors, even in humans are tribalism.

Look at religion. As in any tribe (or social group) there must be insiders and outsiders. Since we started forming tribes outsiders are considered as a threat.

Ideals are almost always a way to either benefit ones tribe, or a way to show that the behaviors/customs of ones tribe are superior to others.

Look at how many ideals are derived from Patriotism-- the ultimate form of tribalism.

There are a few ideals that do transcend nationalism, religion or any other form of tribalism... but I don't think they are many.

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Tribes who contemplate change and improvement outperform, outbreed and thus replace tribes who do not.

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Re: Idealism

extra medium wrote:

What is it in us that makes us want a different world?

The dissatisfaction with this one?

Quote:

Where does this come from?

Confusion, complexity, chaos: and the subsequent desire for organization.

Quote:

Is our idealism part of us, or does it come from somewhere else? Sometimes I have this flash of idealism come into my brain, and its almost as if its coming from somewhere else. That idealism is not me. It is not coming from me. Or is it?

If you're a supernaturalist, idealist, theist, etc., I can understand this mentality. But I happen to believe this kind of thinking is screwy, no offense.

Quote:

What is it in us, where does this idealism spring from? Where is the fountainhead of idealism located in us? What is that?

"Idealism" is produced by the same intellectual mechanisms as those that produce the desire to organize your life, or clean your bedroom. There's hardly anything profound about its origins. It's the mind's attempt to categaorize and formulate the entire world, just as it would the words on a page or pictures on a screen: it's the manifestation of the mind's organizational characteristics applied to humanity at large.

In other words, one could say Idealism is just a world-based opinion. "Where do opinions come from?" - Virtually the same question you're asking.

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Re: Idealism

Nietzsche wrote:

...I happen to believe this kind of thinking is screwy, no offense.

Don't say it like that! Confused

The human brain actually seems to be geared up to have "spiritual" or "mystical" experiences--so it's actually quite understandable why some people might come to believe that there's a divine source for inspiration and idealism; after all, we can't prove there isn't, but we can show that the same feeling can be created by decidedly non-divine means (LSD, peyote, asphyxiation, hypnosis, etc.). Besides, I really don't think any of us are in a position to describe others or their beliefs as screwy...

"Hello, Pot? This is the Kettle--YOUR BLACK!" Laughing

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Re: Idealism

Nietzsche wrote:

In other words, one could say Idealism is just a world-based opinion. "Where do opinions come from?" - Virtually the same question you're asking.

Thank you for your opinion.

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Re: Idealism

Mills75 wrote:

....people might come to believe that there's a divine source for inspiration and idealism; after all, we can't prove there isn't, but we can show that the same feeling can be created by decidedly non-divine means (LSD, peyote, asphyxiation, hypnosis, etc.).

gosh...how did you know???

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I NEVER INHALED! Or did I never exhale?

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We want a better world because we fear.

That's a pretty base instinct. With our somewhat augmented intelligence we can fear things that we can't see, haven't experienced, or in fact don't exist anywhere except in our imaginations. Other animals don't generally have that burden.

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Mills75 wrote:

I NEVER INHALED! Or did I never exhale?

Neither did I!

And no one told me what was in that Kool-Aid at the party!

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extra medium wrote:

Mills75 wrote:
I NEVER INHALED! Or did I never exhale?

Neither did I!

And no one told me what was in that Kool-Aid at the party!

That wasn't Kool-Aid!

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hingehead wrote:

We want a better world because we fear.

That's a pretty base instinct. With our somewhat augmented intelligence we can fear things that we can't see, haven't experienced, or in fact don't exist anywhere except in our imaginations. Other animals don't generally have that burden.

What if your ideal world is one where you live on a lush tropical island with a cadre of beautiful women who will cater to your every whim--how does fear factor into that? :wink:

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You fear your life will not be fulfilled unless you live on a tropical island with beautful women.

:wink:

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hingehead wrote:

You fear your life will not be fulfilled unless you live on a tropical island with beautful women.

:wink:

Phew! I'm glad I don't have to live with that fear!

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Idealism is just what you get when someone tries to see the problem, is only partway successful, and dreams up the rest.

Like the kid who couldn't get the math problem right, so he adds and removes a few factors so it is compatible with his way of thinking.

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"Words without actions are the assassins of idealism"
Herbert Hoover

"Some men see things as they are, and say why. I dream things that never were, and say why not?
Robert F. Kennedy

"Some men can live up to their loftiest ideals without ever going higher than a basement"
Theodore Roosevelt

"Ideals are like the stars: we never reach them, but like the mariners of the sea, we chart our course by them"
Carl Schurz

"The true ideal is not opposed to the real but lies in it; and blessed are the eyes that find it"
James Russell Lowell

Many have different opinions on what idealism is. Maybe, there is some truth in all of them maybe not.

I wonder if I'm an idealist or a realist. I like to think that I'm a realist. Maybe James Russell Lowell is right.

AE

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Why not an idealistic realist--work towards the ideal but prepare for the real. Hey, that rhymed!

I'm a poet,
I didn't know it,
but my feet show it
--they're Longfellows.
:wink:

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Mills75 wrote:

Quote:

Why not an idealistic realist--work towards the ideal but prepare for the real.

That's actually military strategy. Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

What is equally true, and also taken into consideration in war is that any plan is only good until the first bullet leaves the barrel. Things never happen as expected, and if you can't imporvise you're dead.

This fact should be taken more into consideration by idealists. But if it was they wouldn't be idealists. So, in other words, the word idealist becomes synonymous with the word fool. Smile

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Idealism

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