6
   

When did Christianity invent hell and god’s imaginary condemnation of man?

 
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Jun, 2019 09:37 am
@Greatest I am,
Greatest I am wrote:
Sure, but the victim is the only one who has the right to forgive him or seek revenge.

How does this personal forgiveness/revenge function in the afterlife in the system that you are describing?
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Jun, 2019 03:24 pm
@Greatest I am,
Greatest I am wrote:

oralloy wrote:

Greatest I am wrote:
If god could be hurt by the sin, sure, but he is not the victim. Some human is.

That victim deserves justice.


Sure, but the victim is the only one who has the right to forgive him or seek revenge. God is redundant and Jesus cannot forgive a sin not directly against him. Unless of course you belive it moral for us to abdicate our responsibility for our sins and immorally use a scapegoat.

If that is your view, then you show how your beliefs have corrupted your moral sense.

All true religions orient us toward ego-transcendence. In Christianity, we transcend the ego by becoming part of Christ-Risen. This is a natural step toward realizing that there is really only God. Lucifer is the angel who desperately wants to separate and compete with God, instead of just being happy to serve His will.

Sin and forgiveness are part of this world, which victimizes everyone. Getting tangled up in which sin victimizes whom is what we do when we are in ego-mode, but when we transcend ego, we recognize that all are sinners and thus all are in need of forgiveness. That is why Jesus said, "let him without sin cast the first stone," and everyone put their stones down instead of stoning the adulteress.

Yes, the goal is to stop sin, and the Bible tells us to reprove sinners, and reprove may involve punishment in various ways; but there is no such thing as justice, because two wrongs can't make a right. All you can ultimately do is reprove sin in order to help people see the light and seek reform instead of going on sinning without remorse.

Victims of sin may never forgive those who sin against them, even though the Bible tells them to. They may seek revenge, or they may want power over people who have sinned against them. Submitting to the power-lust of victims won't make the world any better, and it might make things worse.

The only thing you should submit to is God through Holy Spirit. If Holy Spirit tells you to do something for someone whose been victimized by sin, whether it was you who caused their victimization or someone else, then you should do that. Listen to Holy Spirit, though, because sometimes you might see that someone is abusing victimization to seek power and revenge and helping them is not going to benefit them. It may actually hurt them spiritually. Sometimes people just have to work through their own anger and feelings of powerlessness. Certainly you should beware of your own ego-aversion to helping them or even empathizing with them, but you should strive for higher vision in whatever you do for them, not just submit to whatever they demand as victim.
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jun, 2019 10:28 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

Greatest I am wrote:
Sure, but the victim is the only one who has the right to forgive him or seek revenge.

How does this personal forgiveness/revenge function in the afterlife in the system that you are describing?


It does not because there is no after life.

Nice that you did not try to refute what I put.

Regards
DL
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jun, 2019 10:32 am
@livinglava,
livinglava wrote:

Greatest I am wrote:

oralloy wrote:

Greatest I am wrote:
If god could be hurt by the sin, sure, but he is not the victim. Some human is.

That victim deserves justice.


Sure, but the victim is the only one who has the right to forgive him or seek revenge. God is redundant and Jesus cannot forgive a sin not directly against him. Unless of course you belive it moral for us to abdicate our responsibility for our sins and immorally use a scapegoat.

If that is your view, then you show how your beliefs have corrupted your moral sense.

All true religions orient us toward ego-transcendence. In Christianity, we transcend the ego by becoming part of Christ-Risen. This is a natural step toward realizing that there is really only God. Lucifer is the angel who desperately wants to separate and compete with God, instead of just being happy to serve His will.

Sin and forgiveness are part of this world, which victimizes everyone. Getting tangled up in which sin victimizes whom is what we do when we are in ego-mode, but when we transcend ego, we recognize that all are sinners and thus all are in need of forgiveness. That is why Jesus said, "let him without sin cast the first stone," and everyone put their stones down instead of stoning the adulteress.

Yes, the goal is to stop sin, and the Bible tells us to reprove sinners, and reprove may involve punishment in various ways; but there is no such thing as justice, because two wrongs can't make a right. All you can ultimately do is reprove sin in order to help people see the light and seek reform instead of going on sinning without remorse.

Victims of sin may never forgive those who sin against them, even though the Bible tells them to. They may seek revenge, or they may want power over people who have sinned against them. Submitting to the power-lust of victims won't make the world any better, and it might make things worse.

The only thing you should submit to is God through Holy Spirit. If Holy Spirit tells you to do something for someone whose been victimized by sin, whether it was you who caused their victimization or someone else, then you should do that. Listen to Holy Spirit, though, because sometimes you might see that someone is abusing victimization to seek power and revenge and helping them is not going to benefit them. It may actually hurt them spiritually. Sometimes people just have to work through their own anger and feelings of powerlessness. Certainly you should beware of your own ego-aversion to helping them or even empathizing with them, but you should strive for higher vision in whatever you do for them, not just submit to whatever they demand as victim.



Stop sin??

Why, when your religion sings of how Adam's sin was a happy fault and necessary to god's plan?

Check your Exsultet hymn.

Would you derail god's plan or encourage Adam to sin?

If not, deal with your contradiction please.

Regards
DL
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jun, 2019 11:59 am
@Greatest I am,
Greatest I am wrote:
It does not because there is no after life.

Ack. I don't like the idea of ceasing to exist when I die.


Greatest I am wrote:
Nice that you did not try to refute what I put.

I'm an Agnostic. I don't have any knowledge of what our fates truly are.

Without such knowledge, I have no basis for claiming that you are either right or wrong.
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jun, 2019 01:28 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

Greatest I am wrote:
It does not because there is no after life.

Ack. I don't like the idea of ceasing to exist when I die.


Greatest I am wrote:
Nice that you did not try to refute what I put.

I'm an Agnostic. I don't have any knowledge of what our fates truly are.

Without such knowledge, I have no basis for claiming that you are either right or wrong.


Thanks for this.

I like the idea to life having an end as I believe the Shangri-La writers to be correct when they say all such systems would be horrible thanks to the boredom they would create.

Even today the numbers of suicide in our young is growing quickly.
Gurus are saying that in about 50 years, 1/2 the deaths will be suicide.
I tend to believe them.

Regards
DL
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jun, 2019 03:50 pm
@Greatest I am,
I would greatly prefer to not to come to an end. I find the idea horrifying.
HabibUrrehman
 
  2  
Reply Tue 18 Jun, 2019 02:04 pm
@Greatest I am,
Quote:
It does not because there is no after life.


Let's use a logical argument to see if concept of afterlife makes any sense? Should we?

Concept of peace and human values is useless without the
concept of hereafter. For example, is robbing a good or an evil act? A normal balanced person would say it is evil.

Suppose I am the most powerful and influential criminal in the world. At the
same time I am an Intelligent and a logical person. I say that robbing is good
because it helps me lead a luxurious life. Thus robbing is good for me.

If anybody can put forward a single logical argument as to why it is evil for me, I will stop immediately. You give it a try, for your ease, I will list some scenarios below with my argument, if you can think of anything new I will address that as a separate post.

People usually put forward the following arguments:
The person who is robbed will face difficulties

Some may say that the person who is robbed will face difficulties. I certainly
agree that it is bad for the person who is robbed. But it is good for me. If I rob a thousand dollars, I can enjoy a good meal at a 5 star restaurant.
Some one may rob you
Some people argue that someday I may be robbed. No one can rob me
because I am a very powerful criminal and I have hundreds of bodyguards. I can rob anybody but nobody can rob me. Robbing may be a risky profession for a common man but not for an influential person like me.
The police may arrest you
Some may say, if you rob, you can be arrested by the police. The police cannot arrest me because I have the police on my payroll. I have the ministers on my payroll. I agree that if a common man robs, he will be arrested and it will be bad for him, but I am an extraordinarily influential and powerful criminal.
Give me one logical reason why it is bad for me and I will stop robbing.
Its easy money
Some may say its easy money and not hard-earned money. I agree completely that it is easy money, and that is one of the main reasons why I rob. If a person has the option of earning money the easy as well as the hard way, any logical person would choose the easy way.
It is against humanity
Some may say it is against humanity and that a person should care for other
human beings. I counter argue by asking as to who wrote this law called
‘humanity’ and why should I follow it? This law may be good for the emotional and sentimental people but I am a logical person and I see no benefit in caring for other human beings.
It is a selfish act
Some may say that robbing is being selfish. It is true that robbing is a selfish act; but then why should I not be selfish? It helps me enjoy life.

No logical reason for robbing being an evil act
Hence all arguments that attempt to prove that robbing is an evil act are futile. These arguments may satisfy a common man but not a powerful and influential criminal like me. None of the arguments can be defended on the strength of reason and logic. It is no surprise that there are so many criminals in this world. Similarly raping, cheating etc. can be justified as good for a person like me and there is no logical argument that can convince me that these things are bad. It is clear that without convincing a person about the hereafter, i.e. life after death, the concept of human values and the good or evil nature of acts is impossible to prove to any person who is doing injustice especially when he is influential and powerful.
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jun, 2019 02:26 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

I would greatly prefer to not to come to an end. I find the idea horrifying.


Why? The end would just be like things are when you are asleep.

I see eternal life as people eventually getting so boring that we would all end wishing we could die.

Regards
DL
0 Replies
 
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jun, 2019 02:34 pm
@HabibUrrehman,
HabibUrrehman wrote:

Quote:

Quote:
Concept of peace and human values is useless without the
concept of hereafter.


Are you suggesting that atheists and agnostics who do not believe in an after life do not crave peace or human values?
Quote:


For example, is robbing a good or an evil act? A normal balanced person would say it is evil.


I disagree, although I would likely agree with that in most of your theft scenarios..

I think I am normal and balanced and would say that all morals and ethics are subjective.

Do you not like Robin Hood?

Is he not a hero thief to you?

Regards
DL





HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Jul, 2019 11:40 am
@oralloy,
Quote:
I (raised Catholic, currently Agnostic) don't claim to know what if anything awaits us after we die, but I'll sure be disappointed if people who cause a lot of harm and suffering do not have to answer for what they've done.


The only answer to this is to believe in life hereafter.
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Jul, 2019 11:51 am
@oralloy,
All questions you have can be answered if you truly know the purpose of this life. The purpose of this life is a test to see who follows the guidance given by God and who does not. Of course God is all watching, all powerful, merciful and just at the same time. Part of the faith is to believe in unseen things such as God, Hell, Heaven, Angels etc and these thing are unseen but yet make sense when we think and reflect on things around us.
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Jul, 2019 12:13 pm
@Greatest I am,
Quote:

Do you not like Robin Hood?

Is he not a hero thief to you?


I am little old school and don't watch TV or movies and don't read book which are just folk stories. I dislike the idea of having hero who is a thief. What exactly are we try to get by idolizing a thief?
Greatest I am
 
  0  
Reply Sat 13 Jul, 2019 09:18 am
@HabibUrrehman,
HabibUrrehman wrote:

Quote:
I (raised Catholic, currently Agnostic) don't claim to know what if anything awaits us after we die, but I'll sure be disappointed if people who cause a lot of harm and suffering do not have to answer for what they've done.


The only answer to this is to believe in life hereafter.


So the only answer is to believe a lie?

Regards
DL
0 Replies
 
Greatest I am
 
  0  
Reply Sat 13 Jul, 2019 09:21 am
@HabibUrrehman,
HabibUrrehman wrote:

All questions you have can be answered if you truly know the purpose of this life. The purpose of this life is a test to see who follows the guidance given by God and who does not. Of course God is all watching, all powerful, merciful and just at the same time. Part of the faith is to believe in unseen things such as God, Hell, Heaven, Angels etc and these thing are unseen but yet make sense when we think and reflect on things around us.


You are not only promoting the belief in a lie above, you are also using a lot of lies as you speak.

How can you know anything of the supernatural, even that it exists?

That takes faith and faith without facts is for gullible fools. Faith is not wanting to know the truth.

Faith closes the mind. It is pure idol worship.

Faith is a way to quit using, "God given" power of Reason and Logic, and cause the faithful to embrace doctrines that moral people reject.

The God of the OT says, “Come now, and let us reason together,” [Isaiah 1:18]

How can literalists reason on God when they must ignore reason and logic and discard them when turning into literalist?

Those who are literalists can only reply somewhat in the fashion that Martin Luther did.
“Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding.”
“Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.”

This attitude effectively kills all worthy communication that non-theists can have with theist. Faith closes the believers mind as it is pure idol worship.

Literalism is an evil practice that hides the true messages of myths. We cannot show our faith based friends that they are wrong through their faith colored glasses. Their faith also plugs their ears.

Regards
DL
0 Replies
 
Greatest I am
 
  0  
Reply Sat 13 Jul, 2019 09:22 am
@HabibUrrehman,
HabibUrrehman wrote:

Quote:

Do you not like Robin Hood?

Is he not a hero thief to you?


I am little old school and don't watch TV or movies and don't read book which are just folk stories. I dislike the idea of having hero who is a thief. What exactly are we try to get by idolizing a thief?


A higher sense of justice and fairness.

Regards
DL
0 Replies
 
GiftofTruth
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Jul, 2019 10:51 am
@Greatest I am,
When? about 300 years after Christ lived..

I believe it was John, one of the blood brothers of Christ, who wrote the original gospel. In the beginning there was just one gospel called the Perfect Life, and it was a story of the life and ministry of Christ. Years after that era, like 100, is when different people wrote offshoots of that gospel, and even years after that is when the books were developed and placed into the New Testament Canon. But let me tell you - those people who made the New Testament that we have today which is made from the Romans, they were extremely deceitful and all about secrecy and money. Now why people in our era would let there be 4 gospels that account of our Christ and have them all not agree with each other - and still believe they are fact??? That is just one of the many things that completely describe how all of those people who stand up for the bible and say it is truth ARE THE MOST BLIND STUPID IDIOTS ON THIS EARTH. I mean if they were real students and studied all accounts, I would not be upset, but these are the people who are filled with ugly pride, they are so sure they are right - when God knows they are wrong. How can these people rest in peace when they die?

Very quickly the Greek and Romans got a hold of that gospel (because at the time of Christ about 50% of all Jerusalem was Christian (one of the many many facts that the white man tries to blot out of history). Let me tell you that I truly hate my ancestors, the white man, I truly truly hate them for lying about Christ and I hope they are in hell. The near ancient white man is as close you can get to the devil.

So as I continue, the Greeks and Romans did many things that were a mockery of Christ and his followers. One of the many many shameful things they did to disrespect Christ was to make literal all the parables and sayings that Christ spoke of that had meanings to them which were not literal. So the Greeks heard that Christ came to make the def hear, and make the lame walk, he was talking about hearing the Word of God and walking to Heaven in the path. Until this day the white people are the first to claim that Christ was like a magician and healing the blind. Do not get me wrong, Christ was a wonderous prophet and did surely do wonders, but they were not those miracle stories that are told like a magician. If you know and understand that Paul tried to make Christ and his followers out like magicians, then you are more advanced in your studies and I say keep going! The Word of God will direct you and guide you and the Word will Confirm the Truth to you. That is a core truth in the bible that Paul and his people were truly against James and Christ. Paul and his people tricked you people, all the way hundreds of years until this day. Even I was tricked until I started studying more. And I know for such a sure fact, that all of you ignorant people arguing that Christ was born as a miracle from a virgin, ALL OF YOU PEOPLE are going to have to apologize to God (and me) for treating us so badly over things that were all not true when you screamed at us saying they are true! It is ALL ABOUT TRUTH. The devil has worked through the people in history to fool people today and the fact that you people have let the serpent enter your heart, God is now not letting you perceive any truth, so when truth is told to you, you get upset and become stubborn and prideful - exactly what God asked you not to be in the Old Testament. This means that I can do nothing at that point. So altogether after your false thoughts in the end you are brought to sin and turn against the very commandments of God that you claim in hypocrisy to care about - all because you chose to believe liars from some near ancient men - just because other people told you to believe them! It is really so stupid and incredible when a master of knowledge has been awaken and sees what you people do. Oh my God your fruits are so dry and rotten! You have no patience for anyone. But it;s root cause is that you will give of your heart to NOBODY - not even for 3 seconds of your life! How selfish is that? Did God not ask you to be unselfish? Or do you not choose to hear and remember that commandment? The absolute negative energy that you church going people give to society - it is obvious to me how your Christian churches are making you sin without you knowing anything about it, because when I am walking on the sidewalk by your church and you are exiting your service, you don't even have enough patience to let me as a pedestrian walk by on the sidewalk as I have a perfect right to do. So you move forward and almost hit me with your car and then yell at me and blame me, for what? Walking by on the sidewalk as a pedestrian? The serpent is in your heart because you are so busy blaming other people for things that are not mistakes, just because of this negative delusion you are in, as that is not a made up story but a real event.

And you people that think you can rebel against the WORD of GOD and not go to hell? I am so happy that you will have to deal with God on a very personal level and ACCOUNT to God over why you were so ignorant to act against the Word and why you were so much in denial to be filled with falsehood, negative energy you give freely, and hypocrisy to stubbornly fight with other people over what is false when they are being correct. You people think that you can repeatedly walk contradicting yourselves with not a care for the ultimate Truth that you are denying, That Is Not Going To Happen, Thankfully. You are not truthful. If you were truthful, you would admit that the reason why you act in such a way is because you Hate your neighbor and fellow human species - that is not right, and everybody will have to make Atonement with God over thinking that way.
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Jul, 2019 01:42 pm
@GiftofTruth,
GiftofTruth wrote:

You are not truthful. If you were truthful, you would admit that the reason why you act in such a way is because you Hate your neighbor and fellow human species - that is not right, and everybody will have to make Atonement with God over thinking that way.


Sniped for brevity but thanks for the post.

You say I am not truthful yet do not show where I lied.

If you were truthful, you would admit that the reason why you act in such a lying way is because you hate your neighbor and fellow human beings.

Go away you piece of human garbage.

Regards
DL

0 Replies
 
 

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