5
   

When did Christianity invent hell and god’s imaginary condemnation of man?

 
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Fri 7 Jun, 2019 09:37 am
@Greatest I am,
Greatest I am wrote:
Sure, but the victim is the only one who has the right to forgive him or seek revenge.

How does this personal forgiveness/revenge function in the afterlife in the system that you are describing?
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Jun, 2019 03:24 pm
@Greatest I am,
Greatest I am wrote:

oralloy wrote:

Greatest I am wrote:
If god could be hurt by the sin, sure, but he is not the victim. Some human is.

That victim deserves justice.


Sure, but the victim is the only one who has the right to forgive him or seek revenge. God is redundant and Jesus cannot forgive a sin not directly against him. Unless of course you belive it moral for us to abdicate our responsibility for our sins and immorally use a scapegoat.

If that is your view, then you show how your beliefs have corrupted your moral sense.

All true religions orient us toward ego-transcendence. In Christianity, we transcend the ego by becoming part of Christ-Risen. This is a natural step toward realizing that there is really only God. Lucifer is the angel who desperately wants to separate and compete with God, instead of just being happy to serve His will.

Sin and forgiveness are part of this world, which victimizes everyone. Getting tangled up in which sin victimizes whom is what we do when we are in ego-mode, but when we transcend ego, we recognize that all are sinners and thus all are in need of forgiveness. That is why Jesus said, "let him without sin cast the first stone," and everyone put their stones down instead of stoning the adulteress.

Yes, the goal is to stop sin, and the Bible tells us to reprove sinners, and reprove may involve punishment in various ways; but there is no such thing as justice, because two wrongs can't make a right. All you can ultimately do is reprove sin in order to help people see the light and seek reform instead of going on sinning without remorse.

Victims of sin may never forgive those who sin against them, even though the Bible tells them to. They may seek revenge, or they may want power over people who have sinned against them. Submitting to the power-lust of victims won't make the world any better, and it might make things worse.

The only thing you should submit to is God through Holy Spirit. If Holy Spirit tells you to do something for someone whose been victimized by sin, whether it was you who caused their victimization or someone else, then you should do that. Listen to Holy Spirit, though, because sometimes you might see that someone is abusing victimization to seek power and revenge and helping them is not going to benefit them. It may actually hurt them spiritually. Sometimes people just have to work through their own anger and feelings of powerlessness. Certainly you should beware of your own ego-aversion to helping them or even empathizing with them, but you should strive for higher vision in whatever you do for them, not just submit to whatever they demand as victim.
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jun, 2019 10:28 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

Greatest I am wrote:
Sure, but the victim is the only one who has the right to forgive him or seek revenge.

How does this personal forgiveness/revenge function in the afterlife in the system that you are describing?


It does not because there is no after life.

Nice that you did not try to refute what I put.

Regards
DL
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jun, 2019 10:32 am
@livinglava,
livinglava wrote:

Greatest I am wrote:

oralloy wrote:

Greatest I am wrote:
If god could be hurt by the sin, sure, but he is not the victim. Some human is.

That victim deserves justice.


Sure, but the victim is the only one who has the right to forgive him or seek revenge. God is redundant and Jesus cannot forgive a sin not directly against him. Unless of course you belive it moral for us to abdicate our responsibility for our sins and immorally use a scapegoat.

If that is your view, then you show how your beliefs have corrupted your moral sense.

All true religions orient us toward ego-transcendence. In Christianity, we transcend the ego by becoming part of Christ-Risen. This is a natural step toward realizing that there is really only God. Lucifer is the angel who desperately wants to separate and compete with God, instead of just being happy to serve His will.

Sin and forgiveness are part of this world, which victimizes everyone. Getting tangled up in which sin victimizes whom is what we do when we are in ego-mode, but when we transcend ego, we recognize that all are sinners and thus all are in need of forgiveness. That is why Jesus said, "let him without sin cast the first stone," and everyone put their stones down instead of stoning the adulteress.

Yes, the goal is to stop sin, and the Bible tells us to reprove sinners, and reprove may involve punishment in various ways; but there is no such thing as justice, because two wrongs can't make a right. All you can ultimately do is reprove sin in order to help people see the light and seek reform instead of going on sinning without remorse.

Victims of sin may never forgive those who sin against them, even though the Bible tells them to. They may seek revenge, or they may want power over people who have sinned against them. Submitting to the power-lust of victims won't make the world any better, and it might make things worse.

The only thing you should submit to is God through Holy Spirit. If Holy Spirit tells you to do something for someone whose been victimized by sin, whether it was you who caused their victimization or someone else, then you should do that. Listen to Holy Spirit, though, because sometimes you might see that someone is abusing victimization to seek power and revenge and helping them is not going to benefit them. It may actually hurt them spiritually. Sometimes people just have to work through their own anger and feelings of powerlessness. Certainly you should beware of your own ego-aversion to helping them or even empathizing with them, but you should strive for higher vision in whatever you do for them, not just submit to whatever they demand as victim.



Stop sin??

Why, when your religion sings of how Adam's sin was a happy fault and necessary to god's plan?

Check your Exsultet hymn.

Would you derail god's plan or encourage Adam to sin?

If not, deal with your contradiction please.

Regards
DL
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jun, 2019 11:59 am
@Greatest I am,
Greatest I am wrote:
It does not because there is no after life.

Ack. I don't like the idea of ceasing to exist when I die.


Greatest I am wrote:
Nice that you did not try to refute what I put.

I'm an Agnostic. I don't have any knowledge of what our fates truly are.

Without such knowledge, I have no basis for claiming that you are either right or wrong.
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jun, 2019 01:28 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

Greatest I am wrote:
It does not because there is no after life.

Ack. I don't like the idea of ceasing to exist when I die.


Greatest I am wrote:
Nice that you did not try to refute what I put.

I'm an Agnostic. I don't have any knowledge of what our fates truly are.

Without such knowledge, I have no basis for claiming that you are either right or wrong.


Thanks for this.

I like the idea to life having an end as I believe the Shangri-La writers to be correct when they say all such systems would be horrible thanks to the boredom they would create.

Even today the numbers of suicide in our young is growing quickly.
Gurus are saying that in about 50 years, 1/2 the deaths will be suicide.
I tend to believe them.

Regards
DL
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jun, 2019 03:50 pm
@Greatest I am,
I would greatly prefer to not to come to an end. I find the idea horrifying.
HabibUrrehman
 
  2  
Reply Tue 18 Jun, 2019 02:04 pm
@Greatest I am,
Quote:
It does not because there is no after life.


Let's use a logical argument to see if concept of afterlife makes any sense? Should we?

Concept of peace and human values is useless without the
concept of hereafter. For example, is robbing a good or an evil act? A normal balanced person would say it is evil.

Suppose I am the most powerful and influential criminal in the world. At the
same time I am an Intelligent and a logical person. I say that robbing is good
because it helps me lead a luxurious life. Thus robbing is good for me.

If anybody can put forward a single logical argument as to why it is evil for me, I will stop immediately. You give it a try, for your ease, I will list some scenarios below with my argument, if you can think of anything new I will address that as a separate post.

People usually put forward the following arguments:
The person who is robbed will face difficulties

Some may say that the person who is robbed will face difficulties. I certainly
agree that it is bad for the person who is robbed. But it is good for me. If I rob a thousand dollars, I can enjoy a good meal at a 5 star restaurant.
Some one may rob you
Some people argue that someday I may be robbed. No one can rob me
because I am a very powerful criminal and I have hundreds of bodyguards. I can rob anybody but nobody can rob me. Robbing may be a risky profession for a common man but not for an influential person like me.
The police may arrest you
Some may say, if you rob, you can be arrested by the police. The police cannot arrest me because I have the police on my payroll. I have the ministers on my payroll. I agree that if a common man robs, he will be arrested and it will be bad for him, but I am an extraordinarily influential and powerful criminal.
Give me one logical reason why it is bad for me and I will stop robbing.
Its easy money
Some may say its easy money and not hard-earned money. I agree completely that it is easy money, and that is one of the main reasons why I rob. If a person has the option of earning money the easy as well as the hard way, any logical person would choose the easy way.
It is against humanity
Some may say it is against humanity and that a person should care for other
human beings. I counter argue by asking as to who wrote this law called
‘humanity’ and why should I follow it? This law may be good for the emotional and sentimental people but I am a logical person and I see no benefit in caring for other human beings.
It is a selfish act
Some may say that robbing is being selfish. It is true that robbing is a selfish act; but then why should I not be selfish? It helps me enjoy life.

No logical reason for robbing being an evil act
Hence all arguments that attempt to prove that robbing is an evil act are futile. These arguments may satisfy a common man but not a powerful and influential criminal like me. None of the arguments can be defended on the strength of reason and logic. It is no surprise that there are so many criminals in this world. Similarly raping, cheating etc. can be justified as good for a person like me and there is no logical argument that can convince me that these things are bad. It is clear that without convincing a person about the hereafter, i.e. life after death, the concept of human values and the good or evil nature of acts is impossible to prove to any person who is doing injustice especially when he is influential and powerful.
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jun, 2019 02:26 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

I would greatly prefer to not to come to an end. I find the idea horrifying.


Why? The end would just be like things are when you are asleep.

I see eternal life as people eventually getting so boring that we would all end wishing we could die.

Regards
DL
0 Replies
 
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jun, 2019 02:34 pm
@HabibUrrehman,
HabibUrrehman wrote:

Quote:

Quote:
Concept of peace and human values is useless without the
concept of hereafter.


Are you suggesting that atheists and agnostics who do not believe in an after life do not crave peace or human values?
Quote:


For example, is robbing a good or an evil act? A normal balanced person would say it is evil.


I disagree, although I would likely agree with that in most of your theft scenarios..

I think I am normal and balanced and would say that all morals and ethics are subjective.

Do you not like Robin Hood?

Is he not a hero thief to you?

Regards
DL





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