The best horoscopes in the universe

Here are some citations from Jung,C.G on horoscope.


"Many people assume, for instance, that astrology is all nonsense. It is true that astrology has nothing to do with the stars. The horoscope may say that you were born in Taurus, but the constellations today have moved and horoscopes no longer correspond to the actual positions of the stars. ... But people criticize astrology as though it had something to do with the stars."
- C. G. Jung in 1929

"The vernal equinox has long since moved out of Aries into Pisces and from the time of Hipparchus has been artificially set at 0° Aries. Consequently the correlations with the planetary houses are purely fictitious, and this rules out the possibility of a causal connection with the actual positions of the stars, so that the astrological determination of time is purely symbolic. Even so, the rough correlation with the actual seasons remains unimpaired, and this is of great significance so far as the horoscope is concerned. ...
There are also the fluctuations of proton radiation, which have been proved to exert a considerable influence on human life. These are all causally explicable influences and argue in favour of astrological correlations that conform to law. To that extent, therefore, I would be inclined to rank astrology among the natural sciences.
On the other hand, astrological observation yields cases where one hesitates to maintain the validity of a purely causalistic explanation. Cases of astonishing predictions, for instance, give me at any rate the feeling of a meaningful "lucky hit", a meaningful coincidence ... to that extent I would rather adduce synchronicity as an explanatory principle."
- C.G. Jung in 1958

Here, I think, one of the keywords is "synchronicity" which is hard to explain for me.

People suck. No respect for other's property.

I had a Firebird I bought for $200 a couple years ago. The thing was hilarious. Teal green, tinted windows, million miles, driver's door opened halfway, and the window only went down an inch, too.

Makes for good times at the toll booth.

Fortune cookies: sugary bliss, or the end-all of wisdom? Discuss...IN BED.

Very interesting. I always thought the equinox dates were all about season changes. So, if it shifts around the calendar, then it doesn't neccessarily coincide with the seasons.....?

Gregorian calendar is devised for equinox date to correspond to seasonal change.

I had a car with that same door problem, xcept it was a fiesta <cringe>. Yeah, the tollbooth thing sucks.

In Bed? I'm not ready for bed. And, it'll make crumbs. I don't like to new style fortune cookies with the numbers on them. They're too serious. I like the ones that don't make any sense in english.

Anmd here I thought that's what the equinoxes were all about.

The notion of "synchronicity", which I referred to above, is the difficult one for me to explain, but here is an example of it.

http://www.psychovision.ch/synw/synchronicity_jung.htm

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Jung cites in his letters [Jung, 1973, p. 395] an occurrence that is an impressive example of synchronicity: "For instance, I walk with a woman patient in a wood. She tells me about the first dream in her life that had made an everlasting impression upon her. She had seen a spectral fox coming down the stairs in her parental home. At this moment a real fox comes out of the trees not 40 yards away and walks quietly on the path ahead of us for several minutes. The animal behaves as if it were a partner in the human situation."

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kismet? Not quite. I understand but wouldn't be able to explain it either.

Pauli/Jung letters might be interesting.

http://www.psychovision.ch/synw/paujubw_e.htm

Y'know, I've saved nearly every cookie fortune I've received for years. They fit perfectly on a little strip of cellophane tape. I've papered the inside of a kitchen cupboard with them. I can't even remember why I started, except I liked the Chinese restaurant in town. There is a lot of good advice and some just seemed funny.

What an astounding example of synchronicity you mentioned, Satt. I'm glad to hear you explain more about astrology. The coincidence of its descriptions of people seems high, though that can be explained as generalizations that would fit anyone. Still....

Piffka..
Any coincidence, in appearence, that has a personal meaning is already not a mere coincidence.
(C.G. Jung would mean it in a deeper sense, though.)

Well, when the horoscopes "work", they do so in a big way at times - and there are often very specific things mentionned. Not as general as many say "all horoscopes are". I have always wondered how it could be that the best astrologers really do have "my number". In fact, in exquisite detail, even, down to the parts of me that are NOT Virgo are exactly LEO, and I was "born on the cusp".

Hmmmm, makes ya think, right?

There is a skill needed on the part of the user of a horoscope for it to work.

Satt, Cobalt -- I like these two arguments against that rather large stumbling block. I have become more interested in astrology recently and found that the "coincidence" explanation is simplistic when you're looking at an entire astrological chart.

My turning point was when I used a simple Astrology for Dummies book to do a horoscope for a friend. It was all wrong -- didn't fit her at all (she is artistic, wild, a hermit, etc. NOT the quiet educator her chart described). I asked her to check again the date and time of birth. The time I'd used was wrong. When it was changed from am to pm, that changed everything and suddenly, there she was. I was very impressed.

The notion of "coincidence" is not well explained by anyone.
Rephrasing it using "by chance" or "accidental" does not solve the problem.

(Believe it or not, I have experiences of teaching prabability.)

Coincidence is not well-explained in science, you mean? Or in probability?

I wonder too, whether people who have known for a long time what their sign is, gradually change their life to "fit" the standard description. Maybe they are said to be artistic, so they take a chance in a creative field. Maybe they are supposed to be good with money, so they acquaint themselves with financial information.

Science is based on probability (or statistics if restrected to methodology). But probability is a math concept given in the form of axioms, which do not require proofs. (Axioms are not proved to be true but promised to be true in the framework which are used.) It is an operational concept and it does not refer to the reality behind it.

Flexibility is one of skills, BTW.

I'm going to have to have that explained to me again.

Are you saying, first of all, that the coincidence of something happening is related to the probability of its happening? And secondly, that there is no mathematical proof of a probability and never has been one? That instead you would use an axiom to define it, and that is a what...? Something like a given factor or constant for whatever variable it is currently being needed?

Maybe it is best for me to just take your word for it that there is no proof of probabilities. Of course, at any point in time, a probability less than one is a freakishly independent factor. Even if the probability is high, it MIGHT not occur, right?

Piffka..
The first point: Probability is related to the coincidence of something happening, not vice versa.
The second point: The concept of probability is a tool for analyzing phenomena of which the mechanism of chance of occurence is not known fully. It is formulated in a system of axioms. An axiom is an arrangement for deriving true theorems relative to the system of axioms.


Let me repeat what I said above.
"Any coincidence, in appearence, that has a personal meaning is already not a mere coincidence. "

I do understand your first point, I think. About the other... I would need an example. To me, an axiom is an established truth.

I had read and wondered how any coincidence that seemed to have a personal meaning could be. But, if you define a coincidence as events happening at the same time, then, yes, if it had any personal meaning, it would be not only a coincidence, of which there are many, but a remarkable one, surprising, perhaps.

The definition and examples of a "coincidence which in appearance has personal meaning" is, a study in itself. A huge variety of possibilities and each individual story is interesting.

To get back to astrology, do you think the coincidence of remarkable stories is a proof of anything?