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The Climate of Man

 
 
sozobe
 
Reply Sat 7 May, 2005 08:24 pm
Just read the third in of three articles in the New Yorker by Elizabeth Kolbert. They've hit me pretty hard. Does anyone have any rational, scientifically-based rebuttal?

I'd certainly like it if the portrait she paints is inaccurate or alarmist, but right now it seems pretty watertight. (So to speak.) If someone can't convince me that there are significant weaknesses, I'm ready to shift into high activist mode.

Here they are all online:

The Climate of Man I:
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?050425fa_fact3

The Climate of Man II:
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?050502fa_fact3

The Climate of Man III:
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?050509fa_fact3

Interview with Elizabeth Kolbert:
http://www.newyorker.com/online/content/?050425on_onlineonly01
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Type: Discussion • Score: 2 • Views: 9,336 • Replies: 97
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littlek
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 May, 2005 11:21 pm
Ok, the first article is about global warming in general, specifically in Alaska. Bit of permafrost are melting, leaving sinkholes and sinkclefts. Some areas haven't thawed since the last ice age 140,000 years ago. Native people are having a hard time sustaining the lifestyle they've been used to, because packice used to access hunting grounds have gone slushy.
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husker
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 May, 2005 11:51 pm
Friday, April 22nd marks the 35th anniversary of Earth Day


Quote:
New research published this week in the journal Science indicates that glaciers in Antarctica are on a steady retreat. We'll talk about the new work, and about how much of that retreat can be attributed to changes in the climate. We'll also talk with Michael Mann, a climate scientist responsible for a climate model that some call the 'hockey stick.' The model has been the target of criticism by some who don't believe that manmade climate change is occurring. We'll also speak with a journalist who has traveled around the world investigating climate change effects.
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husker
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 May, 2005 12:00 am
Bering Sea Climate and the EcoSystem
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 May, 2005 07:43 am
Right, I read all three articles and understood 'em fine. :-D What I'm especially interested in is what, if anything, naysayers have to say about this one. The case laid out by Kolbert in her three articles seems quite compelling. I don't see any particular weaknesses in it. I'm wondering if anyone else does, and if so, if they can convince me.

If not -- if her case really is as compelling as it seems right after I finished reading all three articles -- I'm going to get moving. Something must be done.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 May, 2005 08:03 am
(Thanks for actually reading one of them though, littlek.)
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wenchilina
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 May, 2005 10:41 am
so what accounted for the warmer temps ( warmer than they've been in the past decades ) throughout the medieval warm period ? ( other than the fire breathing dragons Wink )

the temps we see today are neither the warmest over the last millenium nor those that produced the most extreme weather. there have been significant fluctuations in both atmospheric gases and temperatures throughout the planet's history. so i fail to see ' empirical evidence ' in 100 years of data when the planet is 5 billions of years old.

there are other well evidenced issues of pollution that should be driving proactive environmental standards. not shakey at best conclusions.
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littlek
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 May, 2005 10:53 am
Wenchilla did you read the articles?

Soz, I only got most of the way through the first article. I started too late last night (after I'd been drinking, to boot). I have to get in some gardening today (brr), but I'll try and get through the rest of the articles by bedtime tonight.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 May, 2005 11:09 am
Cool, littlek.

Yep, I'm really most looking for people to read the articles and say what about the articles is inaccurate/ misleading, if anything.
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gravy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 May, 2005 01:49 pm
Bookmarking for future reference, when I get back to e-civilization.

(Thanks for the summary of first article LK, my connection will not let me read them or else the planet would be warmer by a few degrees by the time I get done)

Incidentally, wenchilina, I suspect there are other ways to determine warming trends than farmer-almanacs of centuries past. Aren't there?
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 May, 2005 07:14 am
Re: The Climate of Man
I just finished reading the first article. Here's my first impression, which I hope to follow up more verbosely once I've finished the other two articles.

sozobe wrote:
Just read the third in of three articles in the New Yorker by Elizabeth Kolbert. They've hit me pretty hard. Does anyone have any rational, scientifically-based rebuttal?

No I don't. But since you said the word 'scientifically-based', I want to start by pointing out that the foundation of all science is falsifiable theories. All those smart people working on the global warming problem, and all that spectacular supercomputing power that's being thrown at its simulation, cannot change the fact that their prediction -- global warming, possibly catastrophic, 100 years in the future -- are unfalsifiable for all practical purposes. Therefore I find it an exaggeration to call the findings Ms. Kolbert reports about scientific at this point. That does not keep the activist side of the global warming debate from demanding decisive action from all humankind. In fact, the people arguing this side make it very clear that they find it inappropriate to insist on testing the key hypothesis against reality before taking action on it. See for example this excerpt from Mrs. Kolbert's article:

In article 1, Elizabeth Kolbert wrote:

It's not a total show-stopper -- sometimes you have to act on uncertain information. But I would like to point out to you, Soz, that the people who got you into activist mode are demanding a much lower standard of proof of themselves than you have just requested from those who would rebut them.

Sozobe wrote:
I'd certainly like it if the portrait she paints is inaccurate or alarmist, but right now it seems pretty watertight.

Judging from the first article, my impression is that Ms. Colbert has invested an impressive amount of research work, but that her story is alarmist for all the things she doesn't report. But I don't want to get into the things she didn't talk about after reading the first article, only to find that she did talk about them in one of the other two. So I'll leave it at that for now, but I'll be back.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 May, 2005 07:48 am
Fantastic, Thomas, I'm very glad to see you.

A couple of quick things, both from the current article.

First, about the science of it:

Elizabeth Kolbert wrote:
In legitimate scientific circles, it is virtually impossible to find evidence of disagreement over the fundamentals of glabal warming. This fact was neatly demonstrated last year by Naomi Oreskes, a professor of history and science studies at the University of California at San Diego. Oreskes conducted a study of the more than nine hundred articles on climate change published in refereed journals between 1993 and 2003 and subsequently made available on a leading research database. Of these, she found that seventy-five percent endorsed the view that anthropogenic emissions were responsible for at least some of the observed warming of the past fifty years. The remaining twenty-five percent, which dealt with questions of methodology or climate history, took no position on current conditions. Not a single article disputed the premise that global warming is under way."


Another concept from this article is "wedges".

Elizabeth Kolbert wrote:
Stabilizing C02 emissions, Socolow realized, would be a monumental undertaking, so he decided to break the problem down nto more manageable blocks, which he called "stabilization wedges." For simplicity's sake, he defined a stabilization wedge as a step that would be sufficient to prevent a billion metric tons of carbon per year from being emitted by 2054... he eventually came up with fifteen different wedges -- theoretically, at least eight more than would be necessary to stabilize emissions.


A central point made in this article ("Climate of Man-III") is that it will be hard to do something now, but it will be even harder later. Everything is pointing to global warming being underway -- not quacks, but 630 refereed articles in the last 10 years, and the remaining ones on the subject (refereed) don't dispute it. If 630 refereed articles said that a volcano looming over my house was about to erupt, and none disputed it, I'd get myself out of there. Since what we're talking about is the whole world, that's not an option.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 May, 2005 08:04 am
After typing all of that, I checked to see if the third one is online now, and it is. I edited the first post to include the link to pt. 3.
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 May, 2005 08:13 am
sozobe wrote:
If 630 refereed articles said that a volcano looming over my house was about to erupt, and none disputed it, I'd get myself out of there. Since what we're talking about is the whole world, that's not an option.

How about if 630 refereed articles told you that the climate in Columbus in 100 years will be like the climate in Nashville today? Would that alarm you -- as long as your offspring can find 2005 Columbus climate in 2105 Toronto, and as long as Nashville's Country music doesn't move to Columbus along with its climate? I'm asking because if we were to rank those 630 peer-revieved articles by degree of alarmism, that's pretty much all the drama that the article at rank 315 would predict. (I'm going by the IPCC's "technical summary" of "the scientific basis" -- I haven't actually done the experiment myself.)
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 May, 2005 08:35 am
Hmm, that's not really my point. My point is that the unfalsifiability would not prevent me from getting out of the way of the volcano.

If all you are saying is, "Sure, global warming is happening, but hey it might not be so bad," how 'bout if you read parts 2 and 3 and we'll go from there.
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 May, 2005 08:44 am
sozobe wrote:
If all you are saying is, "Sure, global warming is happening, but hey it might not be so bad," how 'bout if you read parts 2 and 3 and we'll go from there.

Yes, that's what I'm saying; and my contention is that this opinion relates to the predictors of catastrophic scenarios like the nice, moderate Lutheranism of my 15 year-old self to the prophesies of a millennial doomesday cults that were fashionable among some at the time. Will be back after reading parts 2 and 3.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 May, 2005 08:46 am
Cool.
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 May, 2005 12:18 pm
Okay, I've read through all three articles, and my initial suspicions were confirmed. Also, I somehow figured out how to make bullet points on A2K, so you will be my first victim. I won't give you a point by point rebuttal right now, because that would get prohibitively long. I'll just start with the three bullet points that seem most important to me at the moment.
  • Predicting global warming is an interdisciplinary problem, and Ms Kolbert didn't talk to at least one of the key disciplines. Granted, she did talk to a lot of climatologists, the people who feed a computer with an athmosphere, change its composition, and watch the temperature change that occurs. But climatologists, however smart and hardworking they are, aren't experts in predicting how climate change will affect our welfare, nor how our demand for goods translates into industrial emissions of Carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gasses. That's what economists are for, and Ms. Kolbert doesn't seem to have talked to any. Had she done so, they would have told her two things: a) The IPCC's "business as usual scenarios", on which their pessimistic projections are based, simplify the underlying energy economics in a way that consistently overestimates how much CO2 gets emitted in the "business as usual" scenario. b) Even if one grants point a) on the timescale that characterizes global warming, human populations are consistently much more adaptable than non-economists intuitively believe. On a timescale of decades, moving north, installing air conditioners, switching to different crops etc. isn't all that hard. Climatologists, by contrast, tend to make intuitive judgments about how hard adaption is, and consistently overestimate the difficulty.

  • Ms. Kolbert misrepresents the correlation between the alarmism of projections and the confidence that climatologists have in them. If she had kept a closer eye on this, she would have found that what scientists are very, very confident about is that that man-made global warming exists at all. So far as I've read them, the catastrophic predictions are of the "you never know what happens" type and the "we can simulate the effect on our computers without violating laws of nature" type. The most alarmist stuff Ms Kolbert reports herself is from remarks climatologists have made to her without a peer review filter in between. That's a big deal because almost all scientists I've met talk very differently to journalist than they talk to colleagues. They know journalists want sexy soundbites, and so they supply them. It is not a good idea to take such remarks at face value, as Ms Kolbert apparently did.

  • The anedotal part of her essay strongly emphasises threshold regions. By that I mean regions like Alaska, where 5 degrees Fahrenheit mean the dramatic difference between frozen ground and a swamp. Or the Netherlands, where a one-yard sea level rise can make the difference between having the atlantic ocean spill over the dikes -- or not. There is nothing wrong about what she reports. But by choosing these threshold regions to report about, Ms. Kolbert makes it look as if the predicted amount of global warming is life-changing for all mankind -- when it realistically is life changing for very few people, kind of expensive for some, and the difference between Columbus and Nashville for the vast majority of humankind.

Elizabeth Kolbert obviously believes in hard work, and she definitely masters the art of the essay. But she doesn't seem to me like a person whose strengths include systematic thinking, and it does seem to me that as a result, she got the big pictures wrong even though she got all the details right.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 May, 2005 12:32 pm
Thanks, Thomas. Again, I much prefer that your take is the correct one.

I understand what you are saying about the lack of filter when a scientist is talking directly to a journalist, but this, for example, seems rather unambiguous (in a way that scientists I know would avoid if they didn't believe it) (excerpted a large chunk for context, referring to Rind's comments):

Quote:
David Rind is a climate scientist who has worked at GISS since 1978. Rind acts as a trouble-shooter for the institute's model, scanning reams of numbers known as diagnostics, trying to catch problems, and he also works with giss's Climate Impacts Group. (His office, like Hansen's, is filled with dusty piles of computer printouts.) Although higher temperatures are the most obvious and predictable result of increased CO2,


The "geopolitically destabilizing" argument makes sense to me, and is one Kolbert returns to:

Quote:


As in, even if Columbus itself has a minorly altered climate (which according to the first quote may well be wishful thinking), would there be catastrophic happenings in the world that would affect our lives here in Columbus in ways large and small?

It seems like the stakes are much too high to kinda hope it works out. Do you see a problem with this?:

Quote:
To alter the economics against carbon requires government intervention. Countries could set a strict limit on CO2, and then let emitters buy and sell carbon "credits." (In the United States, this same basic strategy has been used successfully with sulfur dioxide in order to curb acid rain.) Another alternative is to levy a tax on carbon. Both of these options have been extensively studied by economists; using their work, Socolow estimates that the cost of emitting carbon would have to rise to around a hundred dollars a ton to provide a sufficient incentive to adopt many of the options he has proposed. Assuming that the cost were passed on to consumers, a hundred dollars a ton would raise the price of a kilowatt-hour of coal-generated electricity by about two cents, which would add roughly fifteen dollars a month to the average American family's electricity bill. (In the U.S., more than fifty per cent of electricity is generated by coal.)


I would happily pay $15 a month more to have a chance to belay catastrophic consequences.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 May, 2005 12:38 pm
Hmm, I re-read that last paragraph and I realized the emphasis is different than how I first read it. I gotta go, though, back later...
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