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Wed 4 May, 2005 04:27 pm
Was talking with a friend the other day about Christian religious holidays and how far they have moved from not just the original trappings of the celebration, but also, as far as I'm concerned, the original intent.
I would suppose everyone's aware of the pagen accessories used at or near various holidays (bunnies, eggs, evergreen trees, pumpkins, etc) no no need to go into all that.
But, talk about mass marketing. There I am, a typical Gaul, Slav, Hopi, whatever, minding my own business, when I approached by someone promoting this idea of getting saved.
Well, I'm not too sure about all this, sounds like good insurance, but I don't want to have to pay the price of giving up my winter solstice evergreens. "Well, don't you worry, you can celebrate the birth of Jesus and STILL keep your trees and wreaths, even though they have absolutely nothing to do with it. As long as you join up with us."
What if there were no Christians in the USA today and they came on down to convert some of us.
Mark my words - If there were some sort of Christian holiday in the summer, you'd be hearing "Well, SURE you can eat hot dogs and set off fireworks and such, as long as your doing it in the name of Christ".
Imagine celebrating xmas in Scotland. Imagine celebrating xmas in Mexico. You wouldn't even recognize it as the same day.
Yes, yes, I can hear someone saying - that's just customs - well, reread my original point. How many societies have been talked into conversion because they were told they could stay in their comfort zone of eating dog on a stick or cracking confetti filled eggs on each others heads?
Are some people worshipping God or what looks like an idol?
Which by the way, what about that show - American Idol? How can Christians rationalize watching that? You can't even say, it's just an expression. I mean, it's right out there. IDOL. How many people rush though or put off what they're doing so they can fully immerse themselves in this hour of worshipping whatever it is they do on this show?
Are you talking to your kids, or paying tribute to a pagen god - Fame, Luck, I'm not that educated in the names, but I'm sure they are there.
I'm filled with thoughts like this every day, watching man.
I believe in a Creator of the universe - all. The good, the bad and the ugly.
Let each of us find our own way - listening to what speaks to us in the silence.
I don't know what to call what I am - I would say pagen - if not for the feeling I wouldn't belong w/ others that call themselves that. Respectfully, no Wicca for me thanks.
I guess I should call myself a human
OH - BTW - Have any of y'all read the book "American Gods" - it's one of the best, thought provoking, witty book I've ever read. Can't think of the authors name, Neil something? I'll get back to you on that.
Gotta go for now!
Oh - and what about these avatars - personifications of gods or something - at least I think that's near the definition.
I don't look anything like Mr. T.
I think.
About the 'christian holidays', I'm a Christian and don't practice them. It is never authorized in the bible that you should celebrate Christ's birth on the 25 of December. I celebrate his birth everyday. On top of that, it never says in the bible to celebrate easter. I memorialize the death, ressurection and raising of Christ on the first day of the week during the Lord's Supper and in general I celebrate it everyday.
Christmas started with the Roman Catholic church a looooong time ago(i dont remember the exact time period). Anyways, it was back when the catholic church was having problems with pagan religions. At the time of the winter solstace, the pagans always had a celebration commemorating the comming of the longer days(more daylight in a day). Well, the catholic church though of this time period as a 'sinful' period when these pagans were having their rituals. So, the catholic church decided to have their own celebration during this time to kindof negate the idolitrous pagans. They called it christ's mas. Well over time more and more practices and whatnot were added to it and eventually it changed over to christams and is now practiced the way it is now. In other words, I didn't come from the bible.
As for Easter, I don't know how it was started but I do know it was never authorized in the bible.
I hope I've cleared up some things.
I hope I've cleared up some things
Thanks, but I wasn't fuzzy.
I figured everyone pretty much knows the pagan origins of most rituals. Thought I covered in my 2nd paragraph.
Doesn't touch upon the subject though, merely pedantic.
Oh - I think the author was Neil Gaimen?
What M!THº§ says rings true: The Bible does not single out any particular day to celebrate the birth of Christ or remember the death and resurrection of Christ. He is also correct regarding the Pegan's celebration being transformed into "Christ's Mass." As for Easter,
Wikipedia writes the following:
Wikipedia wrote:The Easter festival's name in the English and German languages, and much of the symbolism now commonly associated with Easter in English-speaking countries but not in all traditionally Christian countries, are alleged to derive from Eostre, an alleged Germanic pagan goddess, if a remark by the 8th century English historian the Venerable Bede to that effect is to be believed. Her primary festival, according to Bede, fell in the spring during her month, Eostremonat. According to the Bede, the word "Easter" is derived from the Old Norse Ostara or Eostre, a festival of spring at the vernal equinox, March 21, when nature is in resurrection after winter, hence, the symbolism of rabbits...
Back on topic, I believe that many people are getting pseudo-converted, thinking
well, I can do this since I'm doing this under Christ. This is wrong, and the people who are proponents of this sort of "faith" are abusing people's faith in religion.
Furthermore, these holidays are becoming more and more commercial every year. Our family celebrates these holidays not for Christ, but simply because it's part of our family tradition. I celebrate the birth (and life) of Christ every day, and remember his death and resurrection every Sunday morning.
Neil Gaiman is the author.
M!THº§ wrote:About the 'christian holidays', I'm a Christian and don't practice them. It is never authorized in the bible that you should celebrate Christ's birth on the 25 of December. I celebrate his birth everyday. On top of that, it never says in the bible to celebrate easter. I memorialize the death, ressurection and raising of Christ on the first day of the week during the Lord's Supper and in general I celebrate it everyday.
Christmas started with the Roman Catholic church a looooong time ago(i dont remember the exact time period). Anyways, it was back when the catholic church was having problems with pagan religions. At the time of the winter solstace, the pagans always had a celebration commemorating the comming of the longer days(more daylight in a day). Well, the catholic church though of this time period as a 'sinful' period when these pagans were having their rituals. So, the catholic church decided to have their own celebration during this time to kindof negate the idolitrous pagans. They called it christ's mas. Well over time more and more practices and whatnot were added to it and eventually it changed over to christams and is now practiced the way it is now. In other words, I didn't come from the bible.
As for Easter, I don't know how it was started but I do know it was never authorized in the bible.
I hope I've cleared up some things.
Although this is somewhat on the right track most of your information is erroneous. The origins of Christmas stem not from Roman Catholicism but from the Pagan religion of Mithraism. Which, interestingly enough is about the godman Mithras who is born from a virgin, performs various miracles (raises the dead, turns water to wine), is crucified, and is buried and resurrected in a cave (sound familiar?).
During the reign of the Roman Emperor Constantine, Mithraism was as strong as Christianity if not stronger. Constantine being a pagan worshipper himself (he was of the religion Sol Invictus which celebrated the Sun god) used Christianity as a political motive for power. The monotheistic belief of Christians reinforced his motive of "One God, One Emperor." Mithraism being so prominent at the time, however, had to be incorporated into Christianity to appease the people and so much of the pagan holidays were absorbed into Christian tradition.
It was Constantine and his Council at Nicaea that decided which books would comprise the bible as we know it today. What we read today as the bible (no matter what sect of Christianity you are from) was decided upon not by a divine being but a Pagan ruler who had his own political agenda at hand and was a ruthless murderer (among those he killed were his own wife and son).
I read somewhere Constantine was converted (baptised) to Christianity on his death bed, against his wishes.
SN95, good point re the Council @ Nicaea and which books were chosen to make up the bible. This seems so obvious that the choices were politically driven to affirm the agendas of the men comprising the C@N, thereby increasing the churches power.
However, try to get a fundamentalist christian to acknowledge that. The conversation just goes round and round in circles. When the fact is brought up that there are many writings that didn't make the cut, well, they weren't "inspired"
Inspired by what - a group of men who hand picked the sections read and believed today, based on their own plans?
My favorite story of all time is the "emperors new cloths" I often feel like the little boy saying - but the emperors naked! Or, pointing at the elephant in the middle of the room.
Question what you hear. Wonder why. Debate me. Don't be a sheep.
God will not send to to hell for asking questions. We were given a superior brain, use it.
Thanks for the origin on Easter 007 kid.
Chai Tea wrote:I think the author was Neil Gaimen?
... Drools like pavlov's dog.
I am halfway through Neil Gaiman's novel Neverwhere at the moment and it the most amazing book I have read in a longtime. I refuse to let myself read it even though I really want to because then I won't be able to read it on the train tommorow when I'll enjoy it the most.
American gods is a remarkable book as well. (the discussion between Odin and Eostre about easter to which you refer is a highlight of the book).
The sandman comics are okay, not a huge fan even though that's what introduced me to the author.
Caroline is the best little-kids book I've read.
If I could write half as well as Neil Gaiman then I would die a happy man.
American Gods convinced a conventionally pious, 66 year old woman, a friend of mine, that f/sf/speculative fiction would be well worth reading to keep her mind flexible.
Funny. I always thought that any celebration that includes killing a tree, eating a genetically altered flightless bird and maxing all the credit cards seemed a far cry from the origins of Christmas.
Oh. By the way. The writings of Isaiah which describe the birth, ministry and death of Christ before the fact were old before Mithras was a gleam in his father's eye.
M!THº§ wrote:About the 'christian holidays', I'm a Christian and don't practice them. It is never authorized in the bible that you should celebrate Christ's birth on the 25 of December. I celebrate his birth everyday. On top of that, it never says in the bible to celebrate easter. I memorialize the death, ressurection and raising of Christ on the first day of the week during the Lord's Supper and in general I celebrate it everyday.
Christmas started with the Roman Catholic church a looooong time ago(i dont remember the exact time period). Anyways, it was back when the catholic church was having problems with pagan religions. At the time of the winter solstace, the pagans always had a celebration commemorating the comming of the longer days(more daylight in a day). Well, the catholic church though of this time period as a 'sinful' period when these pagans were having their rituals. So, the catholic church decided to have their own celebration during this time to kindof negate the idolitrous pagans. They called it christ's mas. Well over time more and more practices and whatnot were added to it and eventually it changed over to christams and is now practiced the way it is now. In other words, I didn't come from the bible.
As for Easter, I don't know how it was started but I do know it was never authorized in the bible.
I hope I've cleared up some things.
Actually, the Bible allows a wide latitude for differences of opinion on this subject.
Rom 14:1 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things.
2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables.
3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him.
4 Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.
5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.
6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord;[a] and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it.
If you want to observe a day to honor Christ's birth or His resurrection and you do it in a way that truly brings honor and glory to Him, then it is no problem.
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