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BREAKING NEWS!! NOTRE-DAME of PARIS is ON FIRE!

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Apr, 2019 05:28 am
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

BTW the Wed NYT had a large diagram of t Notre Dame Cathedral and gave a time line seris of all the repairs and additions through history. I think it was engineer who said that this place was futzed with since 1200 that its hardly a need to "restore it" to an original state cause there really wasnt one. Even the spire was a later addition and then was restored once before
The completion of Germany's largest cathedral; Cologne, was completed 1880, 632 years after construction had begun.
Cologne cathedral, like many other churches and cathedrals, was destroyed during WWII. And restored afterwards.
You can say, that all these churches (and other buildings) aren't original.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Apr, 2019 05:30 am
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:
It turned out that with the combination of the lead roof AND the way that many of the beams (In that cruciform shape that held up the spire), There was no way thy could ven get water in there to do some good UNTIL large parts of the lead roof melted away. Imagine a lead roof. Th roof alone weighed in at about 50 tons they said(Im checking that out it seems rather light for a dense material over such an area and almost 1/2 in thick plating).
Wood beams are still among the most durable material to maintain shape in large spans,(so long as they are kept dry and protected from fire).
Especially in the Middle Ages, the lead roof enjoyed increasing popularity, as the covering of the complicated roof geometry with the easy to process lead sheets proved to be particularly economical and time-saving, especially for representative buildings such as churches.
Over time, the use of lead as a roofing material decreased as new materials and manufacturing techniques were developed.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Apr, 2019 08:42 am
@Walter Hinteler,
think about how all the homes of the rich inplces like Venice,(qhere they had cisterns that collected roof water and hey used it for drinking and cooking. Im sure the cities with lead roofs aong the high priced realty had a significant number of people with mental disorders .
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Apr, 2019 10:24 am
@farmerman,
Not only that: in medieval times, the wells, if they had them, were laid out near aboriginal or manure pits.

Famous examples are the Aborterker ("castle toilets") ...
https://i.imgur.com/KuGY3EX.jpg
(Vischering Castle)


... and how it was done on farms
https://i.imgur.com/v8hvXVM.jpg
(Merian, 1635)
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Apr, 2019 12:55 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
so they suffered lead poisoning and bacterial illnesses. add some plague and we have a real paradise
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Apr, 2019 01:11 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:
so they suffered lead poisoning and bacterial illnesses. add some plague and we have a real paradise
Only those, who were alive: infant mortality was very high throughout the Middle Ages. It varied according to status and epoch, but was 20 - 30 % on average for newborns and infants.

And then "Saint Anthony's Fire" (ergotism) and all the other deadly illnesses often just called "black death" (e.g. tuberculosis).
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Apr, 2019 06:34 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Yeh. lotsa things would kill us bck then, but Im amazed that they took so long to see the effects of lad poisoning since it was mostly present among the wealthy because they could afford the lead roofs and cistern collection systems and white and red paint.

s time moved along, the toxic effects of lead totally reversed. As red and white paint pigments were derived from lead salts and could be mixed into oil carriers, lad became a huge problem for poor kids because the taste of lead oxide is actually sweet and kids would actually shew on the painted wood window sills.
Oh well, I better quit before oralloy finds something evil in my most recent diversion of your thread.

I see that theyve raised an amount that could just about cover a rebuild of the spire and sanctuary roof-lines in 5 years. I hope they add those modern materials and incorporate fire sensors and lightning arrestors (another thing I heard they did NOT have)

Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Apr, 2019 09:55 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:
I see that theyve raised an amount that could just about cover a rebuild of the spire and sanctuary roof-lines in 5 years. I hope they add those modern materials and incorporate fire sensors and lightning arrestors (another thing I heard they did NOT have)
They've got enough money to do so.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Apr, 2019 09:58 am
@Walter Hinteler,
spiegel-online has an interesting interview with the head of the mason‘s lodge of St.Stephen‘s Cathedral, chief restoration architect Wolfgang Zehetner:

Wiederaufbau von Notre-Dame "Bitte keine Plastik-Wasserspeier aus dem 3D-Drucker" Reconstruction of Notre-Dame "Please, no plastic waterspouts from the 3D printer."

He thinks that it will take decades until the cathedral is rebuilt true to the original. This is mainly due to the necessary craftsmen, but also because, for example, trees of the quality that existed in the 13th century can no longer be found in Europe today. Also, the corresponding stones would no longer be available today from Paris and the surrounding area.

After 1945, St. Stephen's Cathedral was covered with a steel roof. Wolfgang Zehetner says that things had to go fast back then, and so the engineers had more to say than the preservationists.
A steel roof would be at least technically a very good solution - and not as costly as the original version.
In Notre Dame's view, it would be legitimate to choose a modern design as a replacement that would benefit the building in the long term, such as lower weight and greater stability.
However, a steel construction would not necessarily be safer: in the case of a fire with wood, you can estimate quite well how long it will take to burn away, and you can deduce from this how much time you have to save people, for example. Steel, on the other hand, which is heated so much, does not burn, but can buckle in a matter of seconds because it then becomes soft. So it is not the case that steel protects against all dangers.



Deutsche Welle has a video (in English) about the same topic with the same person: Restoring Notre Dame
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 May, 2019 09:58 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Notre Dame fire: police say air not toxic despite high lead levels on ground
Quote:
Paris authorities have warned of very high lead levels on the ground immediately surrounding the fire-damaged Notre Dame cathedral but insisted there was no danger from breathing the air, after environmental groups likened the site to “toxic waste”.

The latter are preparing to step up pressure this week over the possible pollution danger from toxic metal particles from the cathedral fire. Campaign groups will hold a press conference on Friday to warn of their concerns about the danger from the combustion of lead in last month’s blaze which destroyed the Gothic cathedral’s roof, spreading lead-laden dust.

Paris police issued a statement on Thursday saying there was no risk of toxic inhalation from the air and that high lead levels found on the ground were limited to the area immediately surrounding the cathedral – which is currently closed to the public – and not further afield.

Hundreds of tons of lead were used in Notre Dame’s frame, as well as the church spire that burned and collapsed on 15 April in a blaze which is being treated as accidental. When the cathedral roof caught fire it led to the combustion of vast amounts of the metal.

The Paris police statement on Thursday said that on the surface of pavements and gardens immediately adjoining the cathedral, lead levels were found to be very high: between 32 and 65 times the recommended limit by French health authorities. The areas closest to the cathedral are currently closed. Lead levels are also high within the cathedral itself.

But the police said there was no sign of higher-than-normal lead levels on the ground in the wider neighbourhood around Notre Dame.

Shortly after the fire, the Paris police advised locals to clean surfaces with a damp cloth and pregnant women and children to wash hands frequently.

“With regard to homes or private premises, it is recommended that residents in the immediate vicinity of the Notre Dame proceed to clean their home or premises and their furniture and other items, using wet wipes to eliminate any dust,” police had said.

But the French environmental campaign group Robin des Bois has warned that about 300 tonnes of lead from the cathedral’s roof and steeple had melted in the blaze. “The cathedral has been reduced to the state of toxic waste,” the association said shortly after the fire, urging authorities to detoxify the tonnes of rubble, ash and wastewater produced in the disaster.

The group will on Friday reiterate its concerns over health risks from the blaze and possible contamination of the Seine.

Since the fire, the police have maintained that the threat from lead was limited, saying lead poisoning usually builds up over years of exposure. There have been no reports of acute lead poisoning since the blaze that destroyed the roof of the 850-year-old landmark.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Jun, 2019 08:46 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Health authorities in Paris have urged children and pregnant women living around Notre Dame Cathedral to have the levels of lead in their blood checked amid concerns about the impact of the fire.

The appeal comes after a child living on the Île de la Cité island in central Paris where Notre Dame is located was found to have high levels of lead in a blood test.
An investigation has been launched to check if the causes of the child’s high lead levels could be other than the 15 April fire, the Paris regional health authority said in a statement on Monday. The child showed a level above the regulatory limit level of 50 microgrammes per litre of blood.
The authority said that as a precaution it was asking families with children aged under seven and pregnant women living on the Île de la Cité to consult their GPs so they could be prescribed a blood test for lead levels.

Notre-Dame de Paris: ce qu’il faut savoir sur les risques d’intoxication au plomb
mark noble
 
  -3  
Reply Tue 4 Jun, 2019 09:22 am
@tsarstepan,
So?
Just a fire.

0 Replies
 
tsarstepan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Jun, 2019 10:58 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Health authorities in Paris have urged children and pregnant women living around Notre Dame Cathedral to have the levels of lead in their blood checked amid concerns about the impact of the fire.


I wonder how much neurological damage this level of lead exposure (left untreated since April) ... and if it's even possible to reverse that damage in children at this point of lead accumulation?
mark noble
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 4 Jun, 2019 11:07 am
@tsarstepan,
tsar.
I know how important this event is to you.
But, might I ask you this, please (And I'd rather ask p2p, than in an open forum)?
Do you REALLY care that Notredame burned down?
Cheers.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jun, 2019 12:38 am
@tsarstepan,
did they say whether the kids were even getting treatment, like chelation therapy. There was a hell of a lot of lead that was melted and oxidized.

Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jun, 2019 02:26 am
@farmerman,
Until now (yesterday) no special therapeutic measures were necessary.
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Wed 5 Jun, 2019 04:33 am
@Walter Hinteler,
In an area where there was a huge fire involving lead sheets, I would have recommended medical monitoring before I waited until symptoms showed up.

Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jun, 2019 05:27 am
@farmerman,
That has been done since April 17 - otherwise this child would have been unnoticed.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Jun, 2019 11:50 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Notre Dame is becoming a symbol of Macron’s gung-ho presidency
Quote:
The innovation-obsessed president is at odds with most French people who would like a faithful restoration of the cathedral

To restore or to innovate? Ever since that terrible blaze laid waste to Notre Dame in April, the French nation has been divided between people who want to see the cathedral restored deliberately and precisely to its former glory, and those who prefer the view of the president, Emmanuel Macron, who vowed to “rebuild the Notre Dame so it is even more beautiful than it was”.

Macron, in his typically forceful, overambitious style, has also insisted that the cathedral will be back to its best “within five years”. “We are a people of builders,” Macron said the day after the fire. “We have so much to rebuild.”

But instead of being a unifying project, the vexed question of the restoration of the Notre Dame has become a metaphor for the battle between Macron’s modernising “startup nation” vision of France, and the large number of French citizens who don’t want anything to do with it. Some 1,169 architects, curators and professors signed an open letter to Macron, advising him to wait and to think this reconstruction through. “Let us take the time for a proper diagnosis,” stated the letter. “Listen to the experts, let’s recognise their knowledge, and then, yes, let’s fix an ambitious deadline for an exemplary restoration.”

And polls indicate that more than half the population want the cathedral back just how it was. Last month the French senate passed a bill saying that it should be restored to its appearance immediately before the fire. Yet Macron has approved an international contest for innovative architectural designs.

At the centre of the modernising row is the cathedral’s fallen spire. Designed and built by Eugène Viollet-le-Duc in 1859 and 93 metres high, it was a neogothic masterpiece. As it caught fire and crashed through the roof, a cherished part of Notre Dame disappeared for ever.

When Macron declared that “a contemporary architectural gesture” would be an appropriate replacement following the announcement by the French prime minister, Édouard Philippe, of the competition to design it, a hashtag soon appeared on social media #TouchePasANotreDame (don’t touch Notre Dame). Raphaël Glucksmann, a centre-left writer and campaigner, said that anything other than a complete restoration would “destroy the soul of Notre Dame”. In a rare moment of political unity across the spectrum, far-right leader Marine Le Pen and the conservative luminary François-Xavier Bellamy agreed.

But the various proposals for something completely different are up and running. The architect Alexandre Chassang has proposed a Shard-like glass spire, which he shared on Twitter, adding: “We should not copy the past by mimicry.” Whatever is decided, the works at Notre Dame will be a restoration of a Unesco world heritage-listed monument, an operation that must therefore conform with a 1913 law on monuments that limits new additions to such structures.
[...]
Rebuilding the cathedral with time and caution could be the opportunity for a once-in-a-generation project, reconstructing both interior and exterior using traditional woodworking and architectural expertise. Many monuments of the country’s heritage are in dire need of restoration work, too, and Notre Dame could have opened a wider debate in protecting French historical sites. Macron’s vision of grand contests and impossible deadlines for the completion of the scheme simply shines a light on the poor management abilities behind his showmanship.

But I suppose we should be thankful for small mercies. At least the Notre Dame escaped a rebranding exercise based on the families and businesses who donated the most money: there will be no cathedral Notre Dame de L’Oréal. At least not for now.
0 Replies
 
mark noble
 
  0  
Reply Wed 19 Jun, 2019 09:28 am
So - You folk will discuss ANYTHING to satisfy your, selfish NEED to 'discuss' Anything?

Not judging - Just observing.
It is what it is.
 

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