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Original Sin - Fact or Myth (or Threat)?

Forums: Spirituality And Religion
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Chai
 
Reply Wed 20 Apr, 2005 11:50 am
Maybe I'm misunderstanding the bible or the teachings of my childhood, but here goes.....

When the first people, adam and eve, committed the first transgression against God, how did this sin go about getting "inherited" by their children.

My eye color was passed down by my father, my skin tone from my grandmother, my predisposition toward a certain disease from somewhere else.....

How can one person pass the guilt of an act personally committed to another person? (please, let's not get into slavery and the prejudice experience today - this is a different concept)
Is there some original sin gene?

I've always struggled with the idea of Jesus as savior. What was he saving us from? Some act committed way, way before?

Frankly, I have never read or heard of anything Jesus said that seems any different than what has been said by any number of others.
I have a firm belief in God, but think of God as my Creator, the one who set it all in motion.
When the first being evolved sufficiently to be bestowed with a soul, of course they were going to make mistakes. But is God going to hold billions of souls responsible for the acts of Adam & Eve?

Or is the idea of original sin just something used as a threat to make sure you get baptised.

I am a lighthearted person, but please, no sarcastic responses - I really want to know what you think.
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Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Apr, 2005 12:05 pm
I think that you are a very smart person, attempting to understand what does not seem to make much sense to you. Problem is, that you can't. When religion wants people to buy into something that makes no sense, they tell their people that they have to take the concept on "faith".

Buy the premise, buy the package. If instead, you choose to think for yourself, you will readily be able to discern what is reasonable, and what is not,
0 Replies
 
Chai
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Apr, 2005 12:23 pm
ooooh Phoenix, that term "buy into" always makes my skin crawl.

Humans "bought into" the idea of an Aryan race, as they "buy into" the idea that they need to have so many material things.

Aside: I always get a kick out of commercials that tell us we "deserve" something.
I DESERVE relief from this headache pain!

um, why? Rolling Eyes

Getting back to the point, I already believe things that make no sense to me. String Theory for instance. This just strengthens my belief there's some intelligence behind it all.

But a sin being passed down?
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Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Apr, 2005 12:24 pm
The sin of Adam introduced death -- "Wherefore as by one man sin entered into this world and by sin death; and so death passed upon all men".

Man carries the effect of the sin, not the sin itself.
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Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Apr, 2005 12:28 pm
Quote:
Humans "bought into" the idea of an Aryan race, as they "buy into" the idea that they need to have so many material things.


Chai Tea- Why so negative? People also "buy into" goodness, kindness, compassion and empathy. The term "buy into" itself is neutral. Each person brings into their interpretation of it his or her own experiences and prejudices.
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Chai
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Apr, 2005 12:42 pm
semantics Phoenix - The term buy into isn't neutral, it's negative.
One doesn't buy into kindness, implying they need to get it from someone else. One becomes kind from within.
In my personal experience - when someone has asked me to buy into something - It has always been something I have no interest in, or I would have become so myself.

I'm not at all negative, I'm pragmatic, and fun.

Hi Intripid - So are you saying that if this sin didn't occur, people wouldn't die? (If the wages of sin are death. Then I quit)

That's sounds like another phrase we are supposed to buy into without examining.
Everything and everyone dies physically, if you're refering to a spiritual death, i.e. no afterlife, again, why would God subject billions of people to this based on anothers act?
That's like coming home and kicking the dog because of something that happened at work.

This is great, and enjoyable.
Still looking for an answer. Shocked Shocked Shocked
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Apr, 2005 01:12 pm
With 6 billion people on the Earth, it is very hard to think up a truly original sin....

that hasn't stopped me from trying.
0 Replies
 
yeahman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Apr, 2005 01:24 pm
Re: Original Sin - Fact or Myth (or Threat)?
Chai Tea wrote:
Maybe I'm misunderstanding the bible or the teachings of my childhood, but here goes.....

When the first people, adam and eve, committed the first transgression against God, how did this sin go about getting "inherited" by their children.

My eye color was passed down by my father, my skin tone from my grandmother, my predisposition toward a certain disease from somewhere else.....

How can one person pass the guilt of an act personally committed to another person? (please, let's not get into slavery and the prejudice experience today - this is a different concept)
Is there some original sin gene?

I guess it would be a spiritual trait not a biological one.

Chai Tea wrote:
I've always struggled with the idea of Jesus as savior. What was he saving us from? Some act committed way, way before?

That and actual sin which are the sins we commit on our own.

Chai Tea wrote:
Frankly, I have never read or heard of anything Jesus said that seems any different than what has been said by any number of others.

I thought the forgiveness of sins through faith in the death and resurrection of the Son of God, was pretty original.

Chai Tea wrote:
When the first being evolved sufficiently to be bestowed with a soul, of course they were going to make mistakes. But is God going to hold billions of souls responsible for the acts of Adam & Eve?

The gift of eternal bliss that God gave Adam and Eve was an undeserved gift. We have no "right" to that gift.
0 Replies
 
Chai
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Apr, 2005 02:33 pm
Well ye110man - you pretty much just took my questions/comments and gave the oversimplified myth-like retoric I am skeptical of.

1. You don't inherit spiritual traits, you inherit biological traits.
2. a) if you don't inherit spiritual traits, again, what are you being saved from?
b) I may very well be wrong, but where does it say Jesus is saving us from sins commited more than 2000 years after the fact?
3. No - I don't beieve that forgiveness of sins through faith and someone dying for them is original. Haven't numerous societies used human sacrifice to atone for any number of wrongdoings of the people? What about the Egyptians and their beliefs in a physical afterlife (resurrection). The phorah was not the son of God, he WAS God.
4. The gift of eternal bliss. They didn't deserve it. God took it back. When a gift is given, it's up to the receiver to make use of it as they will, not what the giver expects them to do. That is not a gift, it's a conditional obligation.
I guess what the crux of the matter is......Why don't we communicate through prayer, meditation, etc. directly to our Creator? You will say; Jesus IS God. Okay, but before he was born we could directly talk to God, but after Jesus is born we are pretty much stuck talking to him?
It just seems so separating, so alienating not to talk to Dad. All people know directly about Jesus is in a few short pages of written material. I'd like to hear somebody admit it; it's a pretty worn out story. We all know it to a greater or less extent, like knowing the story line of "The Diary of Ann Frank" or the plot of "ET". There's SO much more, if you just let yourself get past those parables and seek beyond. God is God is God, if you know what I mean.
0 Replies
 
yeahman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Apr, 2005 03:07 pm
Chai Tea wrote:
1. You don't inherit spiritual traits, you inherit biological traits.

And you have proof of this?

Chai Tea wrote:
2. a) if you don't inherit spiritual traits, again, what are you being saved from?
b) I may very well be wrong, but where does it say Jesus is saving us from sins commited more than 2000 years after the fact?

Like I said, even without original sin, we need forgiveness for our actual sins. In fact the Orthodox and Eastern Rite Catholics do not have the concept of original sin.

Chai Tea wrote:
3. No - I don't beieve that forgiveness of sins through faith and someone dying for them is original. Haven't numerous societies used human sacrifice to atone for any number of wrongdoings of the people? What about the Egyptians and their beliefs in a physical afterlife (resurrection). The phorah was not the son of God, he WAS God.

The idea of sacrifice is not original. Christianity doesn't claim that it is. It is found in Judaism. But I haven't found the idea that God would sacrifice himself for mankind, elsewhere. Islam finds the Christian story against the very nature of God. Buddhism is perplexed by the idea that an enlightened one would suffer.

Chai Tea wrote:
4. The gift of eternal bliss. They didn't deserve it. God took it back. When a gift is given, it's up to the receiver to make use of it as they will, not what the giver expects them to do. That is not a gift, it's a conditional obligation.

OK whatever you want to call it.

Chai Tea wrote:
I guess what the crux of the matter is......Why don't we communicate through prayer, meditation, etc. directly to our Creator? You will say; Jesus IS God. Okay, but before he was born we could directly talk to God, but after Jesus is born we are pretty much stuck talking to him?
It just seems so separating, so alienating not to talk to Dad. All people know directly about Jesus is in a few short pages of written material. I'd like to hear somebody admit it; it's a pretty worn out story. We all know it to a greater or less extent, like knowing the story line of "The Diary of Ann Frank" or the plot of "ET". There's SO much more, if you just let yourself get past those parables and seek beyond. God is God is God, if you know what I mean.

No I don't know what you mean. Christians don't pray to God, the Father? What about the most common prayer in all of Christianity...
Our Father, who art in heaven...
0 Replies
 
watchmakers guidedog
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Apr, 2005 09:19 pm
The problem is, christians don't give their god much in the way of morality. Perhaps it's because their god would be even less believable if he were portrayed as being a nice guy when the world is a harsh place.
0 Replies
 
Chai
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2005 09:53 am
Pater Noster
Catholics do speak of God the Father more than any other Christian (protestant) relegion I know of.....

Tune into any church service on public access and take a count of how many times Jesus is mentioned, as opposed to God.
I think I do that tonight.

Would the lords prayer be as popular if Jesus hadn't told us that's the way to pray?

I'm gonna need to do some studyin' up on them there Orthodox & Eastern Rite Catholics - Sounds mighty interestin'
That for that info.

Again though - How do you call yourself a christian if you don't have original sin, so didn't need to be saved from it, so where's jesus in all this?
Does it say in the Bible that Jesus death is forgiving the stuff we do today?
I'm not familiar. Question
0 Replies
 
yeahman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2005 12:53 pm
Chai Tea wrote:
Again though - How do you call yourself a christian if you don't have original sin, so didn't need to be saved from it, so where's jesus in all this?
Does it say in the Bible that Jesus death is forgiving the stuff we do today?
I'm not familiar. Question

Yeah, it's mentioned though I wouldn't know the verses.
0 Replies
 
Chai
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2005 04:25 pm
Mia Culpa
That's what I thought confession was for.
0 Replies
 
yeahman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2005 11:13 pm
Yes, in Catholicism and Orthodoxy it is believed that Jesus gave authority to absolve sin to the apostles and through apostolic succession that authority now rests with today's bishops and priests.
Protestants believe that God forgives all sins by virtue of their faith.
Either way, the sin is able to be forgiven because Jesus was sacrificed for it.
0 Replies
 
booman2
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Apr, 2005 05:24 pm
I believe this whole apple, serpent, devil, thing is a myth perpetrated by early Christians to keep individual thought and curiosity down. Otherwise you can't except the religion verbatum.
0 Replies
 
 

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