I think god is mad at me.

jp--

Quoting what may be Scripture for my own purposes:

Man may be the measure of all things. JPis not.

Spring is here and God is keeping a particular eye on nesting sparrows. She doesn't do I-Pods.

Thats not God, thats Karma.

Something bad happens because something 'bad' ie not agreeing with your wife, occured.
If it wasnt disagreeing with your wife that made you think Gods punishing you it would have been something else.

Wow... we must be literally thinking today.

I wasn't actually suggesting that god punished me by breaking my ipod... I just thought it was a slightly humorous coincidence that I could use to start a discussion.

I'll try to be more straight forward. I think my wife is looking for something that she thinks she will find at church... what ever that is (I'm not sure she knows what she is looking for).

I have no problem with her going to church... if she thinks that she will find what she is looking for then by all means I think she should go there. But, (sorry Noddy... I know I'm not supposed to start a sentence with "but") due to my past experiences with religion, I am not comfortable in an organized religious setting. I don't want this to become an issue between us so I told her that I would, on occasion, go with her. She thinks that, due to my bad experiences with religion, I am extra sensitive about the issue and am over-reacting. I think she is holding on to a memory of her grandmother and doesn't really want to go to church for religious reasons, but rather find those old feelings and memories of life in simpler/happier times.

So I guess I am wondering about your experiences. I feel that I am not capable of being myself in an organized religious setting. I feel that I have to act a certain way, think a certain way, pray a certain way, believe a certain way... and I'm just not willing to do that.

So is she right??? am I just sensitive and over-reacting?

You know what god was saying?

God was saying that you guys have to figure this out before you have kids. Anything that's a little uncertain now will be magnified a thousandfold when a kid enters the picture. What if your wife wants to make sure your kid has those religious experiences that were evidently so important to her? What if she does and then it becomes religious wife, religious kid(s), non-religious husband/ dad?

(I personally was raised agnostic and am currently an agnostic married to an agnostic and raising an agnostic kid -- maybe. We'll see.)

I found it interesting that your lead-in with the I-pod suggested a jealous and vindictive God of Action.

You wrote:



To me, that bold-faced sentence is the important part because it deals with the religious issue in the present. Each of you can speculate about the other person's path, but speculation is only speculation.

Spending some time at services indicates a willingness to try to understand her point of view.

Question: Are you going to spend some other Sunday mornings (alone or with her) seeking God in nature or good works or great art or where ever you feel connected with God? Will you do this regularly or is God a happenstance in your universe?

Sozobe has made an excellent point about settling basic religious orientation before you have kids.

God told me that s/he finds ipods rather distracting and that perhaps you should check out the Society of Friends (aka: Quakers).

Beliefs:
As with all large denominations, individual Quakers are religiously diverse. Their beliefs range from Evangelical (conservative) to liberal. The following beliefs are common to most Quakers:

Friends believe that there exists element of God's spirit in every human soul. Thus all persons have inherent worth, independent of their gender, race, age, nationality, religion, and sexual orientation. Their opposition to sexism, racism, religious intolerance, warfare and the death penalty comes from this belief.
Simplicity, pacifism, and inner revelation are long standing Quaker beliefs. Their religion does not consist of accepting specific beliefs or of engaging in certain practices; it involves each person's direct experience of God.
There is a strong mystical component to Quaker belief. In the moving words of one reviewer of this essay, "In Meeting for Worship, God is there. God is probably always there, but in Meeting, I am able to slow down enough to see God. The Light becomes tangible for me, a blanket of love, a hope made living."
They do not have a specific creed; however, many of the coordinating groups have created statements of faith. The statement by the largest Quaker body, the Friends United Meeting includes the beliefs in: true religion as a personal encounter with God, rather than ritual and ceremony
individual worth before God
worship as an act of seeking
the virtues of moral purity, integrity, honesty, simplicity and humility
Christian love and goodness
concern for the suffering and unfortunate
continuing revelation through the Holy Spirit

Many do not regard the Bible as the only source of belief and conduct. They rely upon their Inner Light to resolve what they perceive as the Bible's many contradictions. They also feel free to take advantage of scientific and philosophical findings from other sources.
Individual Quakers hold diverse views concerning life after death. Few believe in the eternal punishment of individuals in a Hell.
All aspects of life are sacramental; they do not differentiate between the secular and the religious. No one day or one place or one activity is any more spiritual than any other.
Quakers have had a tradition of opposing war. They have followed the beliefs of the early Christian movement which was strongly pacifist. Early Christians even refused to bring charges against others if there was a possibility of the death penalty being exercised. Together with the Amish, Church of the Brethren, and Mennonites, they made it possible for men to be classified as conscientious objectors.

sorry bout the ipod, by the way. maybe God is letting you know it's time to get a new one.

everyone's making good points here. i think your own idea to attend a service or two is sensible. there are big differences between denominations, and maybe even between particular churches in the same denomination, so you may even enjoy the experience. at least you're not an atheist or agnostic, and assuming your wife isn't a fanatic, i don't think she'll mind if you choose not to attend regularly. on the other hand, if you were an atheist, and she was a snake-handling holy roller, there could be serious, even fatal, problems.

Yes, Jpin, I am mad at you.
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And I broke your Ipod on purpose.

:wink:

don't listen to these hippies jp, you are absoutely correct. God is thoroughly pissed off at you and intends to put His foot on your neck and leave it there unless God is a She as Noddy implies and then of course you need to cover up your balls.

A happenstance... I don't know if I would go that far but I think that it may be closer to that then what I have learned about him from my religious experiences. It just seems to me that religion is so rigid and all or nothing. I find it very hypocritical and often times arrogant. I doubt the sincerity of may people who are "doing gods work." I find it very exclusionary to people not like them.

I don't mean to offend anybody by saying these things... I realize that there are people who are sincere and accepting and the opposite of my bad experiences... but I think they are few and far between.

I think the biggest concern that I have is that it will become an issue between me and sb (sb being my wife). We talked about this before we were married and we both felt that we were on the same page. Obviously we were both mistaken. The thing is... no matter what I think about religion, people should have the right to worship how they wish. If she wants to baptize our children, that is fine with me. If she wants to take them to church every Sunday... that is fine with me too. Like I said earlier I think it is a valuable tool that can be used to teach kindness and respect to others.

I think deep down we still share the same values and morals that we talked about and agreed on at the beginning of our relationship. Me not wanting to attend a church doesn't change any of that. To me this is just one more example of the exclusionary nature of religion... it isn't good enough for me to find and believe in my god in nature or the smile on sb's face... I have to be assimilated in order to "whole."


ps... thanks for the laugh bella and BPB... I mean BVT... I knew I could count on you.

I wasn't kidding.
:wink:

me neither...especially about the balls part.

So if I burn the remains of my now deceased ipod... would you forgive me?

An iPod is not worth much, only 99 cents per song.

But a soul can sing for free.




I wouldn't worry about it.

You are already forgiven.

All I need is some worshiping and all will be righted. :wink:

JP, you and your wife might compromise and try a liberal church such as a Unitarian church; they're much easier to get along with and light on dogma. I've even gone once or twice, and they're quite agreeable.

I think it is the nature of dogma to be rigid. That's exactly what makes it dogma -- an idea
that's handed to you without discussion or question, for you to believe without violating. A rule.

This is why I see spirituality and religion to be opposite things.

Meditating and formulating an understanding that makes sense to us,
a quest for awareness, involves a spiritual journey where we question, form, and grow.

Dogma does not grow or change. It is to be accepted.
But ones "spirit" and life, our very being, grows. Our existence is experienced
with varying types of awareness, appreciations, attitudes and commitments.

With dogma, we are told our nature.
With spirituality, we discover our nature.
So they are opposites, that preclude each other.
No?

If Unitarian is still too confining, there seems to be many ways (even the atheist,
agnostic or non-theistic ones) to explore ones being, spirit, and soul.
I'm pretty sure you will find exactly the right one for you.




Just don't smite yourself with the iPod, and you'll be okay. :-)

My previous Boss to this job was so screwed up by religious happenings when he was younger he wouldnt even allow religious meeting posters to go up in his shop window.