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Europe's latest (or oldest?) ethnic minority: The Huns

 
 
dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Apr, 2005 09:57 pm
Mr Stillwater wrote:

Sorry Dags - I can't say from how the Hungarians of today would view attempts to include 'Huns' as a movement. Stuck here in Australia it's a little hard to keep up with the nuances of Central European society and I (shamefully) don't know any Hungarian to speak of and as a written language!!

Well, i hear ya loud and clear (being a slovak we feel particularly irked by huns, who came raiding through our lands in 4th and 5th centuries. we cal them turks though, for no good reason - as their origin is said to be sumerian). and so do hungarians (hear you loud and clear). the huns have been flatly rejected in their demands for a status of a national minority. i fing it highly fascinating and entertaining. plus, heck, might as well lay my cards on the table, it got me an article in our major daily today. <watch me in my little victory dance>. that's not even important. my father loved my article, which is more worth to me than anything else in the world. scuse me, gonna have a drink now.
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Flemish Lion
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Apr, 2005 05:40 am
'Huns' as a national minority seems pretty nonsensical to me. Like dagmaraka said, if Huns are accepted; there's no reason for the Gauls, Franks, Visigoths etc. to be resurrected as peoples.

The 'Hun'garia of today has little to do with Huns. They came to live in what is now Hungary around the 9th century, but they mixed with the Slavs and adopted most of their customs, effectively becoming European. (though it is true that Hungarian is not Indo-European but a language of Central Asian descent, the same goes for Finnish and Estonian)
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Apr, 2005 06:14 am
That's all correct what is written above, but:

according to natiuonal Hungarian law, groups must prove they have lived in Hungary for more than 100 years and collect 1000 valid signatures, then they are recognised as minorities.

I doubt sincerely that this can be done with e.g. Franks or Gauls.


And since the Hungarian National Ethnicity and Minority Office had said there was no scientific proof to the claim, a parliamentary committee decided to refuse the group's request. (Until today, it's not known, if the group will turn to any court.)
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Francis
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Apr, 2005 06:18 am
Even though 80% of the French recognize themselves as Gauls...frankly!
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Apr, 2005 06:24 am
Which is no Gaullist myth at all! :wink:
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farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Apr, 2005 07:17 am
On a slight tangent, Ive been following with quizzical interest , some of the self published "ethno-link" web sites. Individuals, wishing to establish their linneage (not from Lucy but darn close) are compiling allele documentation from mitochondrial DNA test kits (mDNA is that which is maternally linked) to establish genetic haplotypes that give historical linkeage for their own personal families.
Theres a PA_DEUTCH link in which the mDNA roots seem to go backto the Xiang Nu people of Central China (BC350+/-). Thence from the Xiang Nu we have an apparent affinity for enculturation of antisocial acts, because the mDNA ressurects in the Hunnic tribes and, as was their propensity, to kill all the men and rape all the women, we have a clear genetic linkage from the DNA of central China, through the Indo European arena, including the Huns and then , prior to the death of Attila, a great impregnation of the root stock that ultimately gave rise to the Peeaceful Pa Dutch ( Now,Im gonna have to keep my eye on my Amish neighbors lest they begin pilligin and plunderin in their spare time)
You can get this for about 59.95 (or three easy payments of 19.95 each)

My theory is that everybody wants a hunk of a casino, so now, with science, you can get yours.
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gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Apr, 2005 10:30 am
dyslexia wrote:
the neocon modern republican version:
http://www.law-17.com/images/CBOWa.JPG



Crossbows were never the ultimate weapon in warfare. You understand the reason why of course??
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Apr, 2005 12:06 pm
i don't. they'd be quieter. but perhaps it's easier to shoot oneself with a crossbow? i know i could do that easily. staying away from weapons...

francis, is it true that french see themselves as gauls? i'd love to hear more about that. issues of identity fascinate me.

walter, the 'Hun' spokesman, Gyorgyi Kisfaludy claims they are ready to appeal all the way to the European Court for Human Rights, but they have yet to file a court claim... who knows, maybe they won't after all.
As far as Huns go, even I can be partially Hun... only Lord knows who they mixed with as they dispersed after 453AD. They were all over Slovakia, so ultimately I can seek my roots there. Not that I'm gonna...
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gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Apr, 2005 12:22 pm
dagmaraka wrote:
i don't. they'd be quieter. but perhaps it's easier to shoot oneself with a crossbow? i know i could do that easily. staying away from weapons...



Wherever English longbowmen encountered French or Italians with crossbows, the French and Italians lost.

Energy is measured in foot pounds and a crossbow has the pounds, but it simply does not have the feet. An ordinary longbow or Hun/Mongol composite bow as in the image I posted will shoot harder, further, more accurately, and with five or ten times the rate of fire.
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Apr, 2005 12:34 pm
well, i'll stay away from those, too. I'd probably nail it right into my foot.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Apr, 2005 01:07 pm
gungasnake wrote:

Wherever English longbowmen encountered French or Italians with crossbows, the French and Italians lost.

Energy is measured in foot pounds and a crossbow has the pounds, but it simply does not have the feet. An ordinary longbow or Hun/Mongol composite bow as in the image I posted will shoot harder, further, more accurately, and with five or ten times the rate of fire.


You might be perhaps interested in reading this here or English cross bows / English longbows .
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gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Apr, 2005 02:50 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
gungasnake wrote:

Wherever English longbowmen encountered French or Italians with crossbows, the French and Italians lost.

Energy is measured in foot pounds and a crossbow has the pounds, but it simply does not have the feet. An ordinary longbow or Hun/Mongol composite bow as in the image I posted will shoot harder, further, more accurately, and with five or ten times the rate of fire.


You might be perhaps interested in reading this here or English cross bows / English longbows .


Quote:

The crossbow, although known in Roman times, was not widely used in Europe until the Middle Ages. In China, however, where it developed at the same time, the crossbow revolutionized warfare


If that were the case, Chengis Khan shouldn't have taken them. I mean, they only outnumbered him something like 100 - 1 and with superior weaponry....

The basic reality is that no medieval crossbow would shoot as hard or as accurately as one of those little Mongol composite bows. THAT was the ultimate weapon during the iddle ages.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Apr, 2005 06:40 pm
Talking of the guy - it looks like Genghis Khan is up for rehabilitation ... (yes, really).

Quote:
Genghis the good guy

By Catriona Davies
(Filed: 18/04/2005)

Of all the images the name Genghis Khan brings to mind, that of a visionary who brought literacy, law and culture to his people rarely springs to mind.

Genghis Khan leads his troops into battle in the BBC's re-enactment
His name is usually synonymous with evil, his image that of a brutal barbarian who slaughtered millions in his quest for power.

Yet a BBC drama-documentary is aiming to change the reputation of one of the world's most notorious warlords to that of a heroic figure who achieved greatness against all odds.

"Genghis Khan is right up there with the likes of Hitler and Attila the Hun as one of the bogeymen of history," said Ed Bazalgette, the programme's producer.

"We hear the phrase 'somewhere to the Right of Genghis Khan'. Everyone has heard the name yet few people know much about his story.

"It is one of the great untold stories of history and we wanted to get behind the myths. No one is suggesting that he was a benign individual but his history was written by those he defeated.

"To make a parallel, imagine if our country's history was written by the people of Africa or India. He was intent on sharing his riches with his people, and wanted to raise levels of culture, law and literacy. He also brought Chinese medicine to his people." Mr Bazalgette is not the only one taking a new look at Genghis Khan. Mike Yates, the founder of LeaderValue, a company which provides leadership resources, uses him as an example of a figure who achieved success through the "four Es of leadership" - envision, enable, empower and energise".

He said: "Amassing material wealth did not matter much to him, as he shared everything with his loyal supporters. He was seen as a generous leader.

"Genghis Khan also demonstrated a rather liberal and tolerant attitude to the beliefs of others, and never persecuted people on religious grounds."

Born in Mongolia sometime after 1160, he created the largest known empire, covering a fifth of the world, stretching from the Pacific to the Black Sea.

He lived in a brutal world. His father was killed when he was nine and, at the age of 13, he killed his half-brother in a dispute over who would lead the family.

Such is the cult of Genghis Khan in his homeland that last year when Mongolians had to register family names for an election - after having only first names in the Communist era - 50,000 of the 2.5 million population registered themselves as part of his clan.

There are now more than 500 Genghis Khans living in the capital Ulan Bator

Mr Bazalgette's programme involved six weeks filming on the Mongolian steppes in 100F heat and cost £1million.

The cast included 150 horsemen from the Mongolian army, as well as a team of Hungarian stuntmen.

Mr Bazalgette said his team was welcomed by a nation eager for the world to know more about its founding father.

"Genghis Khan has suffered centuries of vilification here," he added. "But he is seen in a different light in Mongolia."


Genghis Khan is on BBC 1 at 9pm next Monday.
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Noddy24
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Apr, 2005 08:00 pm
I read a biography/history of Genghis Khan recently. In spite of being dead for centuries he evoked a great deal of fear and hatred from the Chinese Communists.

"Frodo lives" used to be a fashionable button. "Genghis Khan Lives" is a revolutionary cry.
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Apr, 2005 08:58 pm
"The cast included 150 horsemen from the Mongolian army, as well as a team of Hungarian stuntmen. "

I MUST see that, what a hoot!
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gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Apr, 2005 10:02 pm
A book worth looking at:

http://reviews.authorstore.com/2004/09/genghis_khan_an.html

The Washington Post ran a thing asking readers opinions as to the "man of the millenium" just prior to the turn of the millenium, i.e. the single man whose life had the greatest impact on the history of the last thousand years. Naturally, there was nobody else it could have been.

Genghis Khan invented getting around. Aside from being 300 years ahead of the rest of the world militarily, his armies were conducting operations over thousands of miles. His reopening the ancient trade routes set the stage for the great age of European sailing and exploration.
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Duke of Lancaster
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Jun, 2005 01:36 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
That's all correct what is written above, but:

according to natiuonal Hungarian law, groups must prove they have lived in Hungary for more than 100 years and collect 1000 valid signatures, then they are recognised as minorities.

I doubt sincerely that this can be done with e.g. Franks or Gauls.


And since the Hungarian National Ethnicity and Minority Office had said there was no scientific proof to the claim, a parliamentary committee decided to refuse the group's request. (Until today, it's not known, if the group will turn to any court.)


Interesting new picture there, Walter.
You look like my strict, evil uncle.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Jun, 2005 01:39 pm
Thanks for the compliment.
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Mr Stillwater
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 03:13 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Thanks for the compliment.


I was going to say 'George Costanza', but I'm far too nice Very Happy
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Duke of Lancaster
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 01:36 pm
Mr Stillwater wrote:
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Thanks for the compliment.


I was going to say 'George Costanza', but I'm far too nice Very Happy


Walter looks nothing like 'George Costanza.' What do you think, Walter?
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