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Tue 12 Apr, 2005 12:58 pm
We are all liars, pretending for survival.
With the following I don't want to criticize anybody. I want to query some of our attitudes, our behavior, our goals and our doing or not doing.
If we watch nature, that means plants, animals and ourselves, then we can observe that to lie is a natural attitude which serves in the first place to survive. For example certain plants have a dangerous aspect but can't harm, they might have a bitter taste but are not poisoning, etc. The same applies to animals who often pretend to be something which they are not. And humans? Since we have religious guidelines which probably are the cause for what is called 'moral' and out of this results guilt feelings and new kinds of lies, since then our behavior, our doing or non doing, our feelings and our thoughts are categorized into good and bad.
There are implanted goals and images, as to how somebody must be in order to become the perfect and ideal person, to be rewarded from authorities during all one's life and from god after one has died. What a long story of manipulation, which still goes on! - Humanity has tried to free itself, but has fallen into all kind kind of traps. There seems to be no way to get out of it.
We are all liars. This is built into our structure. We are not aware of it, because pretending is a natural behavior and this is sophisticated through our 'culture' and covered with various layers of varnish, to fulfill common images or self images. To give sense to one's life and offer the vision of 'higher' goals. The intention seems to be positive, but what comes out of it is the need to lie and pretend even more.
Is there somebody in the Internet, especially in these 'spiritual' news groups, who is not pretending? Not initially through their expression given to the outside, rather every body is pretending to oneself. They all want to complete a certain image they have of themselves, they call it 'self realization'. They believe they are on a 'spiritual' path and they argue about it and go into endless threads of spiritual nonsense or high pitched intellectual ejaculations. Is there much difference? They are all pretending and they all are looking for confirmation of their self caring personality.
Or is 'spirituality' not a way to survive? (Of course there is a difference between which is the result of a growing process, then probably it is authentic, but this seems to be rare.
the normal is the 'American Spirituality' which just happens in the head of people, often very sophisticated, but never the less pretending, even they believe for themselves that it is real. Very tricky indeed and those people are perfect in their self defence.
Is there somebody who is aware of what I am taking about?
If a person is pretending to be in a growing process, then this process can only start, when this person has realized that he/she is pretending. Otherwise all one's effort to be spiritual will only be a 'turning around oneself'. I am not saying anything against the fact that people are liars, I am not judging at all, our sophisticated lies are just the result of our cultural development and the way we personally survive, that's part of our daily reality. I am not going to convince anybody of anything, but it could be possible that there are a few people who really are looking for a solution and a way out of this permanent lying, which has brought us to the point that our systems may soon break down, personally, socially and on a big scale. But it seems that there are hardly any hints available to get out of this dilemma. What is offered from ruminants of various belief systems, is to convince seekers and trap them into being followers, devotees and members. The spiritual survival business works quite well, the Internet is obviously the ideal marketplace for it.
I am not offering anything to survive, not even a technique, a method or whatever. I am not pretending to save someone, not even to make life easier, at least not before certain natural structures are cleared up...
I am not even pretending to have found something that I can give to you, nothing with shape and tangible form to give you security. So what?
I don't pretend that I know. I am just responding to what I read during the last few weeks in news groups. There was no echo at all, it seems nobody is interested. But maybe in this forum there might happen some exchange about the subject...
BeiYin
BeiYin - I agree that it is difficult to be honest with oneself and others in our world as it is today. Nothing in our society encourages it - everything conspires against it. I think that now with the internet - there is a very interesting phenomenom occurring. One one hand there is a group of people who communicate on the internet because they are able to pretend they are who they are not - and on the other hand are those who communicate on the internet because they are able to be more wholly who they really are than they are allowed to be out in the world. One group uses it become someone else, and another group uses it to show who they really are.
Societal rules and mores place constraints on people. Someone like myself who looks a certain way and fulfills a certain role is expected to act in certain ways. But sometimes I don't want to - sometimes I just want to be honest and silly and maybe even blunt and crude - (I was raised to be a polite, young lady). There are other people who may not get the response they are looking for in "real" life from people, so they use the internet as a shield - almost like one uses drugs or alcohol at a party to open up and become the sparkling, interesting person they wish that they were without the benefit of substances- in an effort to get the responses they are missing in their lives.
In terms of spirituality - I can't help you there. I don't use the internet to learn more about my spiritual beliefs - I feel pretty clear with what those are. Why are they what they are? I don't really know. There probably is a certain element of brainwashing involved - I've held on to the spiritual beliefs I was taught as a child. But I don't feel oppressed at all by this because I have discovered within myself that it works for me in terms of fulfilling my spiritual self and giving me a guide by which I make my decisions and live my life on a daily basis. I don't think I'm telling myself lies - but I could be. But if I am telling myself spiritual lies, I console myself with the knowledge that they are lies that comfort me.
I think this whole internet conversation phenomenom is fascinating. I'm much better at making friends in real life - because you know what you're dealing with there. You know who the friendlly/smart/kind people are because you can see how they treat others around you. On the internet you learn more slowly, by "reading" who ignores and disregards and treats others as if they mean nothing to them. But my question is - why would anyone just ignore or disregard anyone without knowing anything about them? To be truthful, it reminds me a lot of highschool (in America at least). People just seem to choose who they'll be nice to - and there aint much you can do to change that. It does surprise me that it still goes on into adulthood though...and it's sad that people still have to surround themselves with those who see things just like they do. Another way of feeling comfortable with the lies we tell ourselves I guess.
In general, I agree with you - we all tell the lies we have to tell to get by. But my question is: why do we make it necessary to tell lies about ourselves to each other?
Quote:Since we have religious guidelines which probably are the cause for what is called 'moral' and out of this results guilt feelings and new kinds of lies, since then our behavior, our doing or non doing, our feelings and our thoughts are categorized into good and bad.
I don't find that to be true.
Quote:There are implanted goals and images, as to how somebody must be in order to become the perfect and ideal person, to be rewarded from authorities during all one's life and from god after one has died. What a long story of manipulation, which still goes on! - Humanity has tried to free itself, but has fallen into all kind kind of traps. There seems to be no way to get out of it.
It's a matter of conditioning.
"Two paths diverge in a yellow wood".
Quote:We are all liars. This is built into our structure. We are not aware of it, because pretending is a natural behavior and this is sophisticated through our 'culture' and covered with various layers of varnish, to fulfill common images or self images. To give sense to one's life and offer the vision of 'higher' goals. The intention seems to be positive, but what comes out of it is the need to lie and pretend even more.
I don't think we're pretending. If we hold something as ideal, and we strive for it, we are not pretending, we are moving toward it.
Quote:Is there somebody in the Internet, especially in these 'spiritual' news groups, who is not pretending? Not initially through their expression given to the outside, rather every body is pretending to oneself.
Yeah, I always wonder about those internet groups/websites, but who am I to say? They experience their spiritual growth, and I wouldn't know if they're true or not, but it's better to trust them to a reasonable limit until one has good reasons to believe they're false. It's a circular argument I think.
Quote: They all want to complete a certain image they have of themselves, they call it 'self realization'. They believe they are on a 'spiritual' path and they argue about it and go into endless threads of spiritual nonsense or high pitched intellectual ejaculations. Is there much difference? They are all pretending and they all are looking for confirmation of their self caring personality.
The self-realization thing is pretty over-hyped I agree.
Quote:Or is 'spirituality' not a way to survive? (Of course there is a difference between which is the result of a growing process, then probably it is authentic, but this seems to be rare.
We could really go through everything in our life and make it seem as a way to survive. Spirituality I think is a method of realizing the inherent values in all human beings.
Quote:I agree that it is difficult to be honest with oneself and others in our world as it is today
What is "oneself"? and leading to what is "honest with oneself"?
BeiYin:-
I know what you're talking about.
The difference between us is that you think it's serious and I think it's funny.
Those specs you have on are a lie.Us lying,cheating bunch of bastards have organised things so you can go to the opticians and get sight restored when it's got knacked.And this kit we are on enables you to shout over longer distances than your vocal chords can manage unaided.The road outside is a lie pretending that the path you take to get your supplies,which are all lies as well,is nice and smooth.
Re: We are all liars, pretending for survival.
BeiYin wrote:We are all liars, pretending for survival.
That is a lie. I could be lying, though.
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