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Is the Human Race on a Suicide Mission?

 
 
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Sat 15 Dec, 2018 07:51 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

It's realistic to assume that we can't beat climate change without the US on board, yes.

Neither the US nor any other national population is unified from the standpoint of energy use and sustainability choice. There can be people who walk or bike for transportation and/or take transit anywhere. People are free to use more or less energy in their households, and businesses can choose to use less as well.

If people look at the world in terms of unified nations and then give up hope of positive change by assuming that one or more nations won't change enough to make it worth it for others to, then all that proves is the perspective that views the world in terms of national cultural unity is an enemy to climate/sustainability reform.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Dec, 2018 03:33 am
@livinglava,
Your nation is an enemy of climate sustainability, I grant you that.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Dec, 2018 03:39 am
@georgeob1,
China never denied climate change though... And a big reason they produce so much CO2 is that they're the workshop of the world. Plus they are a quarter of mankind.
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Dec, 2018 09:51 am
Why is Overpopulation Ignored by the Media? The Reasons of a Historical Failure
Bernard Gillan wrote:
In the period 1975 – 2018, world population increased at an average of 83 million per year, and reached 7.6 billion in 2018. The increase in 2017 was the difference between approximately 145 million births and 62 million deaths. Despite population growth, the global average daily food supply per person rose from 2440 kilocalories in 1975 to 2940 kilocalories in 2015 (1). However, over 800 million people are undernourished and 300 million adults are obese.

Cereals are the most important crops for food and feed; globally, 45 percent of the cereal production is consumed by humans, and 35 percent by livestock. The remainder is used for industrial purposes, including ethanol, beer, whisky and vodka. The rise in world cereal production since the 1960s is mainly due to two technological advances. The first was Haber-Bosch ammonia synthesis, in which atmospheric nitrogen is fixed as ammonia (containing 82 percent nitrogen) which plants utilize for protein formation. Production of Haber-Bosch ammonia began in 1913, but did not begin to rise rapidly until the 1960s. The second advance was the Green Revolution that began in the mid-1960s, after agronomist Norman Borlaug had bred varieties of dwarf wheat that give higher yields in response to heavier applications of nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium fertilizer, pesticides and irrigation. The breeding and use of semi-dwarf rice and hybrid maize paralleled that of wheat.

The most striking achievement of chemical agriculture is the maize yield in the U.S., which rose from 2.5 tonnes per hectare (40 bushels per acre) in 1950 to 11.0 tonnes per hectare (175 bushels per acre) in 2016. The global cereal yield rose from 2.81 tonnes per hectare in 1992-96 to 3.91 tonnes in 2012-16 (2). Linear extrapolation of the 1992 - 2016 yield trend (52.3 kg per hectare per year) gives a yield of 5.73 tonnes per hectare in 2050. If the population in 2050 is taken as 9.85 billion (3), and the harvested cereal area remains 718 million hectares (as in 2016), production per person in 2050 would be 420 kg, 10 percent above the 2016 level of 382 kg; the uncertainty is about 10 percent either way. Assuming that the global average cereal yield without using nitrogen fertilizer is 1.6 tonnes per hectare, and that fertilizer increases grain yield by 30 kg per kg nitrogen applied, the global average nitrogen application on cereal crops, 80 kg per hectare in 2015, would be approximately 140 kg per hectare. If the incremental yield-nitrogen ratio rises to 35 by 2050, the nitrogen application would be 120 kg per hectare.

The success of the Green Revolution created three major ecological problems:

1. Globally, about half the applied nitrogen is taken up by the crop plants; the remainder volatilizes in the form of ammonia and nitrous oxide (a powerful greenhouse gas) or leaches to groundwater, resulting in eutrophication (the formation of algae) in rivers, lakes and coastal waters; this creates “dead zones” in which fish cannot live.

2. Applying nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium fertilizer to crops changes the balance between these nutrients and those needed in small or trace amounts; the latter include calcium, sulphur, magnesium, iron, manganese, copper, zinc, cobalt, boron and selenium.

3. Approximately 40 percent of global irrigation water is obtained by pumping groundwater from tube wells; this has resulted in the depletion of aquifers and the lowering of groundwater levels, thereby contributing 0.4 mm to the global sea level rise of 3.4 mm per year (4).

As population growth increases the need for fertilizer, it follows that population reduction would ultimately solve the ecological problems. Unfortunately, human nature is such that global population reduction is not feasible. The reasons for this are given in the following.

In 1950, France had a population of 42 million and 20 million hectares of arable land, i.e. 2 persons per arable hectare. The nitrogen fertilizer application on cereals was negligible, and cereal production per person was about 400 kg per year, slightly higher than the present world average. If the ratio of population to arable land were 2 persons per hectare on the world’s 1.6 billion arable hectares, world population would be 3.2 billion. Reducing world population to this size would mean reducing the global average fertility rate (currently 2.5 children per woman) to 1.5 by 2050 and holding it at that level until 2200. The proportion of the population in the 65+ age-group would rise to 35 percent. Such a drastic change in the age distribution would mean raising the pensionable age to 70 years or more.

Adopting and enforcing a population limit for each country would be an insurmountable obstacle, as Charles Galton Darwin pointed out in 1952 (5). To lower the global average to 2 inhabitants per arable hectare, countries such as Canada, Russia, Australia and Argentina would not be required to reduce their populations, but would not be permitted to reach 2 inhabitants per arable hectare; they would be obliged to have a grain surplus for export to countries that need grain imports. China and India would each have to reduce its population to roughly 300 million; the combined population of the two countries would then be 20 percent of the world population instead of the present 35 percent (6). The relative population reductions in Japan and Egypt, which have 30 and 33 inhabitants per arable hectare respectively, would be much greater (6).

The population of China is projected to peak at 1.45 billion around 2030 and decline to one billion by 2100. This is partly a result of the so-called one-child policy launched in 1979 (in reality a 1.5-child policy). It was replaced by a two-child limit in 2016, but the fertility rate remains 1.6. Japan has a population of 126 million and a fertility rate of 1.4; the population is projected to decline to 102 million in 2050 and 60 million in 2100. These projected long-term declines are likely to be halted by pro-natalist policies based on the advice of growth-obsessed economists who believe that population decline results in a shortage of labour. A world population peak of at least 10 billion is almost inevitable, and this would make 70 percent of the world’s population dependent on Haber-Bosch ammonia. This is not sustainable, but there is no solution in sight. As a sustainable population cannot be attained by fertility decline alone, a mortality rise is highly probable. We can only guess when.

livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Sun 16 Dec, 2018 11:48 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Your nation is an enemy of climate sustainability, I grant you that.

Why would you propagate that national-holism view by saying that in the way you did?

There are people in every country wasting more and others who are wasting less and putting more effort into reforming their behaviors/lifestyles.

Why would you dismiss that by reducing the global world to homogeity at the national level? All you're doing is dismissing the positive impact of some people in order to lump them together with the negative impact of people who happen to hold the same national citizenship as them.

There's no homogeneity at the national level, ever.
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Sun 16 Dec, 2018 11:52 am
@hightor,
hightor wrote:
Why is Overpopulation Ignored by the Media?

Focusing on population size promotes a fascist economic orientation where "less animals in the zoo means more food per animal."

In reality, the problem isn't the ratio of humans to economic resources, it is the failure of humans to ascent to reforming their economic activities and lifestyles toward the end of achieving sustainability and environmental/ecological restoration.

The bottom line is that humans, like other animals, must live in harmony with the natural environment to be sustainable as a species, but we continue to rely on methods of production that serve our own short-sighted interests over that of long-term sustainability.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Dec, 2018 01:27 am
@livinglava,
Quote:
There's no homogeneity at the national level, ever.

I'm sure that was true in Hiroshima in 1945. There were plenty nice and peaceful Japanese folks there. But they were part of a nation that was at war, and they got bombed like anybody else.

Nations matter. Yours is the main financier of CC denial, the country that went out of the Paris accord and Kyoto before that and disparaged them profusely, and the country with the highest emissions per capita. Your nation behave as a pack of enemies of sustainability and criminals against mankind, mixed with the occasional nice folk.
hightor
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Dec, 2018 07:49 am
Would Human Extinction Be a Tragedy?

Quote:
To get a bead on this question, let me distinguish it from a couple of other related questions. I’m not asking whether the experience of humans coming to an end would be a bad thing. I am also not asking whether human beings as a species deserve to die out. That is an important question, but would involve different considerations. Those questions, and others like them, need to be addressed if we are to come to a full moral assessment of the prospect of our demise. Yet what I am asking here is simply whether it would be a tragedy if the planet no longer contained human beings. And the answer I am going to give might seem puzzling at first. I want to suggest, at least tentatively, both that it would be a tragedy and that it might just be a good thing.

nyt
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Dec, 2018 08:40 am
@hightor,
Isn't that question self-contradictory, though? It's not like other species will miss us when we're gone, and by definition we won't be here to find it tragic anymore... The extinction of Tyrannosaurus rex may have been deemed a tragedy by some smart T. rexes, but not by me...
hightor
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Dec, 2018 10:50 am
@Olivier5,
What would really be "tragic" is if we continue our current course destroying natural ecosystems, using up non-renewable resources, polluting the air and water, and somehow manage not to go extinct.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Dec, 2018 12:02 pm
@hightor,
We've been at it for quite some time though...

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ad/Extinctions_Africa_Austrailia_NAmerica_Madagascar.gif
The timing of extinctions follows the "march of man" (after Martin, 1989) ; source : Martin P. S. (1989). Prehistoric overkill: A global model. In Quaternary extinctions: A prehistoric revolution (ed. P.S. Martin and R.G. Klein). Tucson, AZ: Univ. Arizona Press. pp. 354–404. ISBN 0-8165-1100-4.
0 Replies
 
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Mon 17 Dec, 2018 05:59 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
There's no homogeneity at the national level, ever.

I'm sure that was true in Hiroshima in 1945. There were plenty nice and peaceful Japanese folks there. But they were part of a nation that was at war, and they got bombed like anybody else.

Nations matter. Yours is the main financier of CC denial, the country that went out of the Paris accord and Kyoto before that and disparaged them profusely, and the country with the highest emissions per capita. Your nation behave as a pack of enemies of sustainability and criminals against mankind, mixed with the occasional nice folk.

First of all, don't use the phrase "your nation" unless you're trying to provoke wars. By doing so, you are pushing people into an identity trap of either defending or abandoning nations-as-wholes, and that is supremely irrational in light of the reality that every nation contains both good and bad.

Second, what if Berlin had been selected for atomic bombing instead of Hiroshima, or what if the nazis had developed the atomic bomb first and dropped one on London, or Moscow, etc.? You say nations matter, but don't you see that there are global strategies at work involving complex transnational networks, trade complexes, ideological alignments/conflicts, etc etc.?

Third, if the Republicans in the US would get on board with climate reform, they could easily blame the Paris accord and its participants for creating false hope for centralized solutions to a real problem.

To really deal with the problem of centralism being used to pacify individual/business liberty, however, we would have to start punishing people for failing to act outside of what their governments tell them to do. That would create a situation where people are stuck between the rock and the hard place of taking individual action to change their carbon footprint and deferring to their governments as the agents of change.

What would political conflict look like where centralists blame decentralized nations like the US for climate change and decentralists blame the citizens of centralist nations for deferring authority to their governments instead of taking individual/local responsibility for change?
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Dec, 2018 01:18 am
@livinglava,
Tell you what: I'm gona say "your nation" if I want to, and you start a war if you want to... It's called freedom.

Beside, don't be ashamed of being an American. Just make sure your next president is not a total asshole, 'kay?
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Dec, 2018 03:10 pm
@hightor,
hightor wrote:

Would Human Extinction Be a Tragedy?

Quote:
To get a bead on this question, let me distinguish it from a couple of other related questions. I’m not asking whether the experience of humans coming to an end would be a bad thing. I am also not asking whether human beings as a species deserve to die out. That is an important question, but would involve different considerations. Those questions, and others like them, need to be addressed if we are to come to a full moral assessment of the prospect of our demise. Yet what I am asking here is simply whether it would be a tragedy if the planet no longer contained human beings. And the answer I am going to give might seem puzzling at first. I want to suggest, at least tentatively, both that it would be a tragedy and that it might just be a good thing.


More pseudo intellectual drivel from the opinion pages of the NY Times. No objective or rational standard to the "good" value judgment is or even of "moral assessment" is offered. Indeed the implication is that all species of animal or microbe are equally valuable and that the benefit of all (except, by implication, that of mankind) is equally "good". This is hardly an obvious truth, but it does represent the sappy mode of self-loathing group judgments so fashionable today.

Mankind has indeed wiped out large numbers of animals who were inclined to kill and eat them. We have caused other species to thrive because we kill and eat them. How bad is that? Is it any worse than the reproductive behavior of various species of wasp that inject their larvae into other insects to provide nutrition for their growing offspring?

Our scientific understanding of the geologic and thermodynamic history of our planet is far from complete, and there are a number of observed cyclic variations in the solar heat reaching the earth, few of which are well understood. An exception is the Milankovich cycle involving periodic variations in the eccentricity of the earth's elliptical orbit, the inclination of the earth's axis to the plane of that orbit and shorter term oscillations of the earth's rotational axis, which are generally quite predictable. There are about five periodicities in solar activity with somewhat variable periods ranging from 11 to 2,200 years (observed and recorded). Additional quasi periodic oscillations in the strength and direction of prevailing oceanic and atmospheric currents also exist, some of which are believed to have caused major climactic changes.

The Little ice age of 1650-1720 is known to have been associated with the so-called Maunder minimum of solar flare activity and radiation observed then. It involved about 1.5 deg. C cooling. The medieval Warm period may have affected only the northern Hemisphere, and is thought to be a result of increased solar activity, and there is evidence of a significant rise in sea level in the region during this period as well.

It is interesting to note that about 15% of the land in the Netherlands is about 12 feet below sea level, and no disasters have yet befallen the Dutch people. That's about the rise expected in 1,100 years at the current rate of 1/8th Inch/year - we do have appreciable time left . This should remind us that comparisons of the cost of adapting to the expected temperature & seal level rises should (but are usually not) compared to the costs of preventing or reversing it (which themselves are usually left out of such discussions).
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Tue 18 Dec, 2018 03:59 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Tell you what: I'm gona say "your nation" if I want to, and you start a war if you want to... It's called freedom.

Beside, don't be ashamed of being an American. Just make sure your next president is not a total asshole, 'kay?

You just don't get it. It's not about defending nations, it's about defending truth. I may or may not hold French nationality, but I can have an opinion about Macron the same way any French citizen can have an opinion about Trump.

The reality is we are all global people who just happened to be labeled as a certain national 'brand.' When you address people in terms of, 'your nation,' 'your race,' 'your gender,' 'your type,' etc. you are playing with a certain kind of collective homogenization that defies truth/reality while simultaneously provoking people to defend themselves because of identity politics.

Don't do that. 'Your nationalism' is offensive.
hightor
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Dec, 2018 03:57 am
@georgeob1,
Quote:
Indeed the implication is that all species of animal or microbe are equally valuable and that the benefit of all (except, by implication, that of mankind) is equally "good".

I didn't read it that way.
Quote:

Mankind has indeed wiped out large numbers of animals who were inclined to kill and eat them. We have caused other species to thrive because we kill and eat them. How bad is that?

I don't see it as a matter of "good" or "bad".
Quote:
Our scientific understanding of the geologic and thermodynamic history of our planet is far from complete, and there are a number of observed cyclic variations in the solar heat reaching the earth, few of which are well understood.

None of these explanations has been trotted out in the current case because we have a actual situation before our eyes; we can see the predicted effects of the accumulation of greenhouse gases.
Quote:
It is interesting to note that about 15% of the land in the Netherlands is about 12 feet below sea level, and no disasters have yet befallen the Dutch people.

That's precisely because the Dutch have long been aware of their precarious situation and have invested heavily in the infrastructure needed to protect them from rising seas. We should be following their lead instead of simply dismissing their situation in order to make some putative debating point.

Quote:
Experts believe that New York will set a trend for other coastal cities as it comes to selecting adequate measures. Both Dutch flood experts Bas Jonkman and Ellen Tromp suggest New York also to consider multi-functional levees. Cities as The Hague and Rotterdam have recently completed flood protection projects with levees succesfully integrated in the urban surroundings.

DutchWaterSector
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Dec, 2018 07:30 am
@livinglava,
The truth is that nations DO exist, that they are headed by governments who also DO exist and that they DO all sorts of things that DO have an impact on economy, culture and the environment. Your denial of nations does not make them go away.

Ask the good folks in the migrants caravan if borders are real or not, and whether it matters or not which country you live in. Ask anyone who has ever lived abroad, for that matter.

And if nations DO exist and matter, it follows that we should be able to talk about them... If such talk is offensive to your tenders ears, you're welcome to leave the conversation.
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Wed 19 Dec, 2018 03:34 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

The truth is that nations DO exist, that they are headed by governments who also DO exist and that they DO all sorts of things that DO have an impact on economy, culture and the environment. Your denial of nations does not make them go away.

What are you talking about with 'existence?' Of course they exist. All information and ideas exist. What you're doing, however, is to deny that people are global and we are just 'branded' with various identities, including national identity.

You have to look at reality beyond brands and identity politics. The universe is not organized into mutually exclusive categories and territories, national or otherwise.

Quote:
Ask the good folks in the migrants caravan if borders are real or not, and whether it matters or not which country you live in. Ask anyone who has ever lived abroad, for that matter.

Of course borders are real. The Berlin wall was real. The Korean DMZ is real. Apartheid in South Africa was real. Humans create these reasons for policing each other, but that doesn't make nations any more or less real than gang territories are to gang members.

I, personally, see borders as a useful tool in policing global organized crime and flows of trafficked contraband, such as drugs and prostitutes. If cross-border social-economic exploitation could be ended, I would be for freedom of migration by responsible people to various regions for cultural exploration, provided people used their liberty responsibly, honored environmental/sustainability concerns, etc.

That is not likely any time soon for most people, however, so until a global culture of responsible liberty is achieved, it makes sense to maintain borders and keep policing them for contraband and using tariffs/etc. to stimulate more local self-sufficiency and reducing economic/environmental/resource waste.

Quote:
And if nations DO exist and matter, it follows that we should be able to talk about them... If such talk is offensive to your tenders ears, you're welcome to leave the conversation.

Please stop with whole "do nations exist or not" issue. When you say, "your nation" to someone, you are implying that nations are unified wholes acting in unison. That is not the reality. Nationality is an identity designation given to lots of disconnected things and people.

You can't lie to yourself that nations are more than that, unless the purpose is to obfuscate reality, in which case you can do it but it's a bad idea.

And, btw, nations don't have to be real to construct borders as tools for social control. We can create as many borders as we want and police them in whatever ways we can legitimate morally/ethically. We could put walls along every state line and build walls around cities again, gated communities, etc.

We should deal with questions of morality and ethics when creating and policing territories, but whether or not nations/territories are 'real' or not is a distraction from the real ethical/moral issues.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Dec, 2018 03:51 pm
@hightor,
hightor wrote:

None of these explanations has been trotted out in the current case because we have a actual situation before our eyes; we can see the predicted effects of the accumulation of greenhouse gases.
Quote:
Well we can read of the projected effects, however the starkly evident fact remains is that the IPCC predictions haver been consistently high with respect to warming. Only in the last few year have they reacted to the growing embarrassments of earlier predictions and made corrections to their models, such as the faster growth of CO2 absorbing green plants in an atmosphere with more nutrients for them - an omission that would not pass muster with any graduate level thesis.
hightor wrote:

That's precisely because the Dutch have long been aware of their precarious situation and have invested heavily in the infrastructure needed to protect them from rising seas. We should be following their lead instead of simply dismissing their situation in order to make some putative debating point.
I agree. They have indeed done that, and, in addition have, and continue to, reclaim more and more land in the Zuider Zee.

I agree that while much effort has gone into often exaggerated estimates of the environmental and economic effects of warming and sea level rise ( good effects are usually omitted and bad ones magnified), far too little has involved a comparative analysis of the relative cost of managing these effects.

Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Dec, 2018 01:13 am
@livinglava,
Come to think of it, maybe you have very good reasons for not associating the US with "your nation", and I have no reason to assume you're American. You could be Russian instead.
 

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