I haven't read Manhattan Transfer so I can't comment on it. But I have read USA, and it would be ridiculous to compare Dos Passos' impoverished style with Joyce's infinite resources of language. All you have to do to make the comparison is open USA at random and open Ulysses at random and compare the level of stylistic brilliance on the two randomly selected pages. I think even Dos Passos would have been the first to defer to Joyce as the greater writer.
Hiama:
When I said "the intricate structure" of ULYSSES I meant a lot more than the stream of consciousness. I meant the Homeric parallels, the way every episode in the novel functions on at least two or three distinct levels of meaning, the currents of symbolism and metaphor that run through the narrative. You may not like Joyce, but denying his brilliance is like denying that the Himalayas are tall.
Lola,
Well, this thread began as a discussion of a book.
Timberlandko,
Actually, I was being kind to larry. I understand what you mean but this is a person who can not stand being corrected or outreasoned by a woman. Incidentally, he went to great lengths twice to attempt to correct me ... both times on subjects that I know a great deal about and both times he was stunningly wrong.
I have two Masters Degrees myself but I am not so full of myself to use them as a debating point.
The above is a quote from larry richette which I happen to not believe.
Dos Passos is one of those writers whose work I keep looking at and wondering if I should try it - like Willa Cather - so most of you say "go", eh...which book?
I love James Joyce for all the reasons Larry's mentioned about his works. But I think it has to do with who you are, what your experiences are, what you like to think about, how you like to think it, etc. I especially appreciate the stream of consciousness for a number of reasons, for one, it's the way we think. It also functions as a literary technique for character development. I personally prefer to be shown and not told. Or keeping telling to a bare minimum. And the multiple levels of action in Joyce's works are always stimulating to me. I love a challenge and I'm never bored by Joyce. But I'm a psychoanalyst, and I work with associations and multiple meanings all day long. It is one of my interests, so Joyce pleases me. Others have other interests, so I'm not offended by differing opinions on this.
I'm wondering if we might have a more satisfying discussion if we all were a bit more tolerant of the rights of others to disagree. I think we should work very hard to keep judgemental hyperbole out of our comments. Some people experience these super-charged words as insulting. I may think someone's idea is "ridiculous" or just plain wrong, but I think it doesn't further the discussion very far to say it in this way. I would like to have a discussion about books and authors, but it's very hard to do with all this bickering.
dlowan,
I read Dos Passos' USA trilogy many years ago. It's almost always on the list of Great American Novels but continually goes in and out of print. I'm not entirely certain of Dos Passos' standing among academics at the current moment. I loved the book. Whether I would love it twenty five years later, I can't say. You might find it not so fresh and experimental as it seemed to me a quarter of century ago.
I also like Cather. I don't like her as much as I like Edith Wharton, but, again, I haven't read either in a long time. As I remember CAther, she didn't seem to have tidy endings to her story and some of her descriptions may strike you as odd -- I'm thinking in particular of A Lost Lady where she goes on and on about the woman's dangling earrings and her thin, sallow cheeks. My Antonia is fine.
Has anyone read Writing Was Everything?
No - I have not - and I had forgotten how this thread started. Sounds interesting.
I looked back at your comments, and felt so nostalgic - for those endless student days and nights (they weren't actually, I always worked as well, but hey, who needed sleep?) spent in that charged atmosphere of absorbtion in literature and debate - (and lots of other charged things! heehee) - just when your brain and mind are reaching their full, adult powers. I still debate literature and such, but that whole thing of it being the essence of one's life is a wonderful time!
(Er - I do believe I have gone a little off thread)
To the contrary dlowan, I think you're exactly on the subject, or at least my reading of what this thread is about.
Plainoldme, could you claify this for us?
Plainoldme has accused me of lying about my academic credentials. I had vowed that I was going to avoid this kind of personal attack, but since she has chosen to attack me, I feel compelled to respond. I do indeed have two Masters Degrees--they are a matter of public record and can be checked with the relevant institutions. I have a Masters in Film (Screenwriting and Directing) with Honors from Columbia University, awarded in 1986, and a Masters in History from University of Pennsylvania, awarded in 1994. Plainoldme has called me a liar. I hope that she will have the decency to retract her reckless assault on my character and my good name and apologize--something she seems congenitally incapable of, but there's always hope, even for her.
i don't have any academic credentials but i enjoy reading.
In reading, I just do it.
Apparently it doesn't bother any of you that plainoldme has called me a liar. Well, it bothers me. I await her abject apology. Nothing less will do.
Academic credentials are certainly NOT necessary to enjoy reading! This is a silly argument that plainoldme raised several days ago on this discussion.
Agreed. It is a silly argument.
This thread is now unlocked. Please continue with your lively discussion about literature.
If there are any personal issues that come up, please do not detract from this discussion by addressing them on this thread. If there is something personal that you would like to discuss with another member, the PM is the appropriate place for that kind of communication.
Enjoy your discussion!
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Good idea, if we now know when moderators are speaking as moderators or members.
