Reply Tue 22 Mar, 2005 10:53 pm
Rupert Sheldrake's web site is:

http://www.sheldrake.org/

Sheldrake is a former director of studies for cellular biology at Cambridge university who got bored with normal pursuits and took to investigating things normally termed "paranormal" using statistical methodology and good scientific experimental design. Naturally this has made him public enemy #1 to the CSICOP crowd; nonetheless his credentials are better than any of theirs and they have no leverage over him.

Sheldrake has shown that "paranormal" kinds of things are real to a statistical certainty. His work on animals which know when their owners are coming home is sometimes shown on cable channels.

One of Sheldrake's most interesting studies involves the little African gray parrot, Nkisi, who has been taught to actually speak English:

http://www.sheldrake.org/nkisi/nkisiaimee/nkisi1_best.jpg

The lady who owns Nkisi approached Sheldrake several years ago with what Sheldrake says is the craziest animal story he has ever come across and he has thousands of people coming up to him with animal stories all the time. Morgana (who trains Nkisi) said that she no sooner had taught the bird to talk, than it became clear the bird had some level of psychic powers and was reading her thoughts to some extent. She'd be thinking about doing something and the bird would say "That's a bad idea, I wouldn't do that!" or some such and she was afraid she might be losing it. Sheldrake has put Nkisi's abilities to rigorous testing and some of the accounts of this appear on his web site:

http://www.sheldrake.org/nkisi/

http://www.sheldrake.org/papers/Animals/parrot_telepathy.html


Picture the poor evolutionist at this point. As hard as it is to try to devise some cock and bull story about how wings or poison fangs might evolve, trying to explain how any sort of paranormal capability might evolve is hundreds of times harder.
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Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Mar, 2005 11:10 pm
Re: Paranormal Parrot
gungasnake wrote:
Picture the poor evolutionist at this point. As hard as it is to try to devise some cock and bull story about how wings or poison fangs might evolve, trying to explain how any sort of paranormal capability might evolve is hundreds of times harder.

Perhaps you'd like to take a shot at explaining how diseases build up resistance to drugs. Remember, don't mention natural selection.
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hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Mar, 2005 11:16 pm
Why? Evolution just says that if a trait promotes the ongoing fecundity of a individual over others in it's species then that trait will is statistically more likely, over time, to be passed on and become more prevalent within the species possibly to the point were the trait is an identifying feature of the species.

That includes telepathy (won't buy into that argument, yet). Somehow I don't think Nkisi's telepathy is a reproductive advantage. All it gets the bird is poking and prodding from Sheldrake and not much chance to get laid.

I'd still love to know where you get this stuff from Gunga - are you in a club or something?

Hey! What about Sheldrakes work on morphogenetic fields? He isn't anti-evolution, he just has theories that additional factors drive it.

Are you a morphogenetics apostle? You should look at Kipling's 'Just so' Stories http://www.boop.org/jan/justso/

Sorry about that bit of flippancy, I'm still trying to figure out which camp you're in and who's trumpet you're blowing. Still at least people aren't ignoring you.
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Adrian
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Mar, 2005 11:44 pm
<scratching head trying to work out what a telepathic parrot has to do with evolutionary theory>
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Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Mar, 2005 01:05 am
How diseases build up resistance to drugs in your world view?
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gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Mar, 2005 04:27 am
Brandon9000 wrote:
How diseases build up resistance to drugs in your world view?


That's called "MICROEVOLUTION", which nobody disputes. That means variation within a species.

The gist of the "Theory of Evolution" is the notion of "MACROEVOLUTION". That's the thing which is in dispute. MACROEVOLUTION means the generation of new kinds of animals via mutation and natural selection.
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hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Mar, 2005 06:35 am
Hi Gunga

So what creates new species? In your world view, to steal a line from Brandon, of course.
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gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Mar, 2005 08:02 am
hingehead wrote:
Hi Gunga

So what creates new species? In your world view, to steal a line from Brandon, of course.


Genetic engineering and re-engineering.
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raprap
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Mar, 2005 08:17 am
Again with the pejorative 'evolutionist'

It seems that the basic level of attack of those demanding that the creation hypothesis be elevated to a scientific theory is first to make science a religion--that science is based upon faith and without verification. This argumentative tactic is the ultimate in a strawman's strawman. As a result the creation hypothesis still remains a historical footnote.

To me it seems that if the creation hypothesis crowd really wanted to rise above a scientific hypothesis it's adherents would present an valid argument that would include a experiment, observation, or prediction that would support their posit, rather than anecdotal domestic phenomena. For instance, as a posit how does the creation hypothesis explain fossil records?

BTW the African Grey parrot is amazingly intelligent and is considered in some circles as competent a problem solver as a bonobo. And bonobo's have also been taught a form of human communication (ASL, simple computer languages). Moreover bonobo's in the wild are tool users, form social organizations, and teach their children skills. In addition, the bonobo did all their accomplishments without the benefit of the selective breeding of the domesticated African Grey and the canis familiaris.

Not even a nice try Gunge, but IMO you aren't even aiming in the right direction.

Rap
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Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Mar, 2005 10:14 am
Diseases build up resistance to drugs because of natural selection and mutation. Evolution is merely more apparent in bacteria and viruses because of their short generations, but the phenomenon is exactly the same.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Mar, 2005 10:23 am
So, before this turns into yet another stand for anti-evolution, what's the point about the parrot? Hes got ESP?
and this refutes evolution how?
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Slappy Doo Hoo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Mar, 2005 10:33 am
You guys are a bunch of off-topic retards. How the hell does a parrot equate to diseases building resistance to drugs?

This thread is about Tucan Sam, and his ability to remove bitches' clothes using only his mind. That is a sweet bird.
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Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Mar, 2005 11:56 am
Slappy Doo Hoo wrote:
You guys are a bunch of off-topic retards. How the hell does a parrot equate to diseases building resistance to drugs?

This thread is about Tucan Sam, and his ability to remove bitches' clothes using only his mind. That is a sweet bird.

Not really. This was at the end of the post that initiated this thread:

gungasnake wrote:
...Picture the poor evolutionist at this point. As hard as it is to try to devise some cock and bull story about how wings or poison fangs might evolve, trying to explain how any sort of paranormal capability might evolve is hundreds of times harder.

and it was to that that I was responding.
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ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Mar, 2005 03:09 pm
So an Intelligent Creator is going to give parrots ESP?
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gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Mar, 2005 03:38 pm
ebrown_p wrote:
So an Intelligent Creator is going to give parrots ESP?



Apparently.
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SCoates
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Mar, 2005 04:10 pm
I actually puked when I read the last sentance of that first post.


Oh... I forgot I had Froot Loops for breakfast.
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Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Mar, 2005 04:20 pm
Brandon9000 wrote:
Diseases build up resistance to drugs because of natural selection and mutation. Evolution is merely more apparent in bacteria and viruses because of their short generations, but the phenomenon is exactly the same.

Comment?
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Slappy Doo Hoo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Mar, 2005 04:24 pm
That is a hella sweet bird.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Mar, 2005 05:09 pm
quite tasty too. Lotsa dark meat
0 Replies
 
 

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