6
   

Biological organisms are [i]primarily[/i] Software Defined Lifeforms. - Yes or No?

 
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Sep, 2018 01:15 pm
Here is a snippet of a recent Smithsonian article on the origin of life that artfully explains/admits that we still have no clue how life started. The idea of sterile minerals “must have figured it out” is such a leap of faith that I’m surprised to see it in The Smithsonian. But on the other hand, what else can they say? Contrary to what farmerman said last time, science has not figured abiogenesis out.

Quote:
The biggest question is: How does one go from molecules organized on a mineral surface to a set of molecules that makes copies of itself? We certainly know that is the fundamental characteristic of life, self-replication, and we know that some early system of molecules must’ve figured out that trick. Perhaps the minerals guided that process or perhaps they were merely a convenient place for molecules to meet and organize, and just by some pure chance event, just the right set of molecules came together and formed this self-replicating system.

Read more: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/life-and-rocks-may-have-co-evolved-on-earth-180957807/#K9RHlovy0HeWstxK.99

farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Sep, 2018 05:28 pm
@Leadfoot,
The nucleoties can only be linked in a few means
1nucleotides to themselves or nucleoties to those of same base. (Purines to purines and pyrimidines to pyrimidines)
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Sep, 2018 05:32 pm
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
See, I know you are making this **** up because your own story does not add up, it contradicts the simplest logic
so hen logic defualts to "MAGIC" thats ok to you eh?
An intelligence who (dont bother trying to understand about the origins of life because as long as I have my sky daddy, Its all ok for me)

You do understand that the illogical ones here are those you see in a mirror.

0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Sep, 2018 05:52 pm
@Leadfoot,
I know Bob Hazen real well. The Smithsonian article quoted him and did it pretty much out their ass. First off BOB aint a paleogeochemist, hes a really well known minerals guy. His recent work about the co-"evolution" of minerals with the appearance of life is pretty much backed up by good evidence. We know the first minerals were native metals and acid salts, theorugh time the chemistry is one of het, buffering, pressure and appearance of oxygen as a f(of its thermo availability due to its fugacity )which s a function of pressure temp, gas constant etc.
Bob , when he said that we "may never know about lifes origin" , is repeating what Jim Ferris said" we may Never know the EXACT chemical origins of life on earth --mostly because there are many possible pathways that life could have appeared.

When you post tuff (like layman used to) make sure you get all sides of a techy subject so you dont confuse yourself and sort of insist that a pwrson from one discipline speaks for another. Brain surgeons dont usually speak for podiatrists ya know?.
Read some of Jim Ferris' stuff also on hi own and several articles in AGU or, I think, even in SCi American.

Whatya got ta lose?
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Sep, 2018 07:45 pm
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:
Clarify for me, do you think I have stated this correctly so far?

I really don't know. Philosophy is not my thing. I had to look up Ontological to see what it means and I'm still not sure I understand it.

I do understand however that Methodological Naturalism is necessary to the scientific methodology. This explains it pretty well...
Quote:
In a series of articles and books from 1996 onward, Robert T. Pennock wrote using the term "methodological naturalism" to clarify that the scientific method confines itself to natural explanations without assuming the existence or non-existence of the supernatural, and is not based on dogmatic metaphysical naturalism (as claimed by creationists and proponents of intelligent design, in particular by Phillip E. Johnson). Pennock's testimony as an expert witness at the Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District trial was cited by the Judge in his Memorandum Opinion concluding that "Methodological naturalism is a 'ground rule' of science today":

Expert testimony reveals that since the scientific revolution of the 16th and 17th centuries, science has been limited to the search for natural causes to explain natural phenomena.... While supernatural explanations may be important and have merit, they are not part of science." Methodological naturalism is thus "a paradigm of science." It is a "ground rule" that "requires scientists to seek explanations in the world around us based upon what we can observe, test, replicate, and verify.


Does that help clarify my understanding of the matter?
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Sep, 2018 10:11 am
@rosborne979,
Quote:
I really don't know. Philosophy is not my thing. I had to look up Ontological to see what it means and I'm still not sure I understand it.

It seems pretty straight forward to me. Ontological Naturalism takes the a priori position of - 'Supernatural forces Do Not Exist'. Up until this last post (below), that sounded like your position. But take note of the first line I emphasized. That is distinctly different than ON. Science takes no position on the existence of the supernatural. Why should it?

Quote:
I do understand however that Methodological Naturalism is necessary to the scientific methodology. This explains it pretty well...
Quote:
In a series of articles and books from 1996 onward, Robert T. Pennock wrote using the term "methodological naturalism" to clarify that the scientific method confines itself to natural explanations without assuming the existence or non-existence of the supernatural, and is not based on dogmatic metaphysical naturalism (as claimed by creationists and proponents of intelligent design, in particular by Phillip E. Johnson). Pennock's testimony as an expert witness at the Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District trial was cited by the Judge in his Memorandum Opinion concluding that "Methodological naturalism is a 'ground rule' of science today".

Expert testimony reveals that since the scientific revolution of the 16th and 17th centuries, science has been limited to the search for natural causes to explain natural phenomena.... While supernatural explanations may be important and have merit, they are not part of science." Methodological naturalism is thus "a paradigm of science." It is a "ground rule" that "requires scientists to seek explanations in the world around us based upon what we can observe, test, replicate, and verify.


Note that nowhere in that last emphasized line that there is no mention of the supernatural. Science is supposed to follow the evidence wherever it leads.

Quote:
Does that help clarify my understanding of the matter?

It clarifies what you say you believe MN is. But your position on the OP is not consistent with that.

Biology clearly tells us that DNA is the coded instructions for the construction and operation of living organisms. It is executed in separate organelles (Ribosomes). These are undisputed facts of biology. The similarities to computer software driven system is obvious to anyone with a basic understanding of both fields.

You refute this by claiming that DNA is self contained and performed all its functions as a self contained entity. This error is so glaringly false that it is pointless to try and draw the parallels between DNA and software as long as such a contradictory belief is held. I’m so certain of this that if you can present verifiable evidence that I am wrong about this I will concede the OP argument to you.

Fair enough?
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Sep, 2018 01:29 pm
If science is supposed to follow the evidence wherever it leads, we will never see a scientific investigation of the so-called "god." Unless, of course, anyone in the god squad has some knock-down, unequivocal, testable and replicable evidence for their magic sky daddy.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Sep, 2018 07:28 am
@Leadfoot,
I don't even know if we are in disagreement on the philosophy stuff. All I know is that Methodological Naturalism is a core component of the Scientific Method and that it is critical to creating the value that Science has given us.

As for your software argument, I have stated my case. I guess we will have to disagree. You keep dragging DNA into my statements when I have not said anything about DNA. DNA is a very complex molecule, I'm certain it was not the first replicator to arise, and I'm certain in benefited greatly from the evolution of molecules which came before it.

The bottom line is that you have failed to convince me of your "software" argument. I am not convinced that the information contained in DNA can be considered "Software" (your original OP). And even more importantly, I do not see any need for an Intelligent Designer to "write the software" in DNA, when it can arise naturally.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Sep, 2018 07:49 am
@rosborne979,
Quote:
You keep dragging DNA into my statements when I have not said anything about DNA.


You are now in denial of what you previously said about DNA. Here is your previous quote:
Quote:

rosborne979 wrote:
Computer software is discrete from its hardware. It can and does exist independently. In its most basic form it's just a pattern of logic gates held in state by electricity.

Biological information is intrinsic to its hardware (DNA), so the code and the hardware are essentially one thing. When the DNA evolves over time due purely to natural physical rules, the information it carries is carried along with it. That's a pretty key difference.


There are too many contradictions and falsehoods in your statements to reach a valid conclusion about the OP. But thank you for the input. It was helpful in understanding the philosophical problems with discussions on the topic.
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Sep, 2018 12:11 pm
@Leadfoot,
Those were my first posts, before I began detailing my responses to your questions. I can see how that might have been misleading. Please refer to my more recent posts for a more accurate understanding of my position. And my apologies for rushing my earlier posts and using inaccurate analogs. Thanks.
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Oct, 2018 06:58 pm
Ros brought up the subject of CRISPR (on another related thread) which allows us to edit DNA to either modify it for some specific trait or to repair damaged (mutated) DNA .

But an even more direct illustration of why DNA is literally software is the availability of tools to synthesize any DNA sequence from scratch, implant it in a cell and let the organism develop into whatever was coded in the DNA. If we knew the sequence for a T Rex we could create one now.

This isn’t some theoretical possibility, anyone can order up whatever DNA code they want from any number of labs. (Example below) You can define it from scratch or modify an existing genome. The only thing we lack right now is a full working knowledge of the genome. We are like first graders sitting down at a computer work station. The tool is there but we have barely begun to learn programming.



What say you Ros, does ordering DNA from a lab satisfy you as showing it to be 'separate' from the 'hardware'?
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Oct, 2018 12:30 am
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
If we knew the sequence for a T Rex we could create one now.

You'd need a T. rex egg to host the T. rex DNA though...
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Oct, 2018 06:07 am
@Olivier5,
We could use one of your wife’s egg, plug in T Rex DNA, then use her womb for an incubator.

But seriously, you don’t get it. DNA is in full control of what the organism is.
I’ve already pointed out our ability to build a sheep out of a skin cell. Good ole Dolly the sheep.

This is because:

All living organisms are software defined Lifeforms.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Oct, 2018 06:26 am
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
We could use one of your wife’s egg, plug in T Rex DNA, then use her womb for an incubator.

That's a really disgusting thought, even from you. Something must be seriously fucked up with your DNA for you to be thinking about impregnating any woman with dinosaur DNA, let alone my wife, poor thing.

Wouldn't work anyway: you would need a T. rex egg to host that T. rex DNA. It won't work with a bird or a mammal egg. You will not be able to understand why, though.
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Oct, 2018 06:42 am
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:
What say you Ros, does ordering DNA from a lab satisfy you as showing it to be 'separate' from the 'hardware'?

No Leadhead, it doesn't. DNA is hardware. It's a molecule; deoxyribonucleic acid, a self-replicating material present in nearly all living organisms as the main constituent of chromosomes. It is the carrier of genetic information. It is constructed from smaller molecules. It accumulates over time due to natural processes. It carries with it information which benefits the continued reproduction of the molecule.

Yes it's complex, but that doesn't mean it's written by any ID. It forms naturally, and is exposed to selection so that it exhibits non-random patterns which improve its probability of reproduction in the environment it is exposed to. It's not software, it's hardware. Everything about it is hardware. And the code that it carries is not written, it is grown, along with the hardware.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Oct, 2018 05:28 pm
@rosborne979,
DNA is hardware only in the same sense that a disk drive, DVD or a flash drive is hardware. The material the information is written on is irrelevant. In all cases, it is the information that is meaningful, not the media it is written on. If you can’t see that simple fact, nothing I can say will make any difference.

I must admit, I am honestly amazed at the resistance to what is obvious. I guess I shouldn’t be. Philosophical positions often do not yield to reality. And to top it off, I’m sure you feel the same way. Fascinating!
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Oct, 2018 05:36 pm
@Olivier5,
If you want to know the facts rather than make erroneous assertions about this, read the following article in the journal Nature.

https://www.nature.com/news/2007/070628/full/news070625-9.html

Here’s a snippet, read that last line CAREFULLY.

Quote:
Genome transplant makes species switch
One type of bacterium has been reprogrammed into another.


Philip Ball

By transplanting their genomes, US scientists have converted one species into another.

John Glass and his co-workers at the J. Craig Venter Institute in Rockville, Maryland, have taken DNA from a bacterium called Mycoplasma mycoides and inserted it into cells of the closely related species Mycoplasma capricolum.

They find that the recipient cells with the new genome behave like those of the donor species, making protein molecules characteristic of the donor. It's like re-booting a cell with a new operating system, says Glass.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Oct, 2018 07:01 pm
From that same article in Nature.
Read that last line, it says it all.

Quote:
The work raises the possibility of reprogramming cells with new functions — perhaps even turning cells from other organisms into human stem cells for regenerative medical treatments.

But that is a long way off. Glass's team currently has its sights set on giving a bacterium a completely synthetic genome, made in the laboratory.

This would enable the researchers to design a new species from scratch. It is an ambitious aim, not least because the design rules for an entirely artificial genome are still poorly understood. But the latest work, reported in Science1, shows that a cell's molecular machinery can run on a different genetic operating system.
.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Oct, 2018 12:36 am
@Leadfoot,
You can switch DNA from one bacteria to the next of the same genus, but if you try and transplant T. rex DNA into your own egg and put in your own vagina, it's not gona grow into a baby T. rex.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Oct, 2018 04:30 am
@Olivier5,
I think I have shown the clear evidence that the OP is true. If you will not take the word of one of the most eminent genetic scientists in the world you certainly won’t take mine.

If you want to quibble about my somewhat tongue in cheek example (although there is no theoretical reason why it would not be possible), go right ahead.
 

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