Where is East?

There is a wide variation and disagreement in many word origins and this is the reason why I often am distrustful of dictionary word origins in general.

Thank you for your view on this subject Walter.

* The name, as given in Greek by Berosus, is O-annes; but this is just the very way we
might expect "He-anesth," "the man," to appear in Greek. He-siri, in Greek, becomes
Osiris; and He-sarsiphon, Osarsiphon; and, in like manner, He-anesh naturally becomes
Oannes. In the sense of a "Man-god," the name Oannes is taken by Barker (Lares and
Penates). We find the conversion of the H' into O' among our own immediate neighbours,
the Irish; what is now O'Brien and O'Connell was originally H'Brien and H'Connell
(Sketches of Irish History).


Comment:
Letters change from an older dialect to the newer dialect or as they cross language borders.

Often this is because people cannot pronounce a certain sound.

Like the Acadian French from near where I live cannot pronounce "th" so they pronounce it as "d" instead.

So, "Look over there" become "Look over dare". Dey do dis whenever a th is used.

The same for the German "sch".

I knew a German woman who had a son named and spelled Steven but she pronounced his name Schtevie.

It was not because his name had an Sch in the spelling... It was because she could not or preferred not to pronounce an s alone.

So Oost would be pronounced Oosht.

Also the "o" at the beginning of the word oost could have originally been an "i" or "e" in an earlier tongue considering "v" in vespers was changed to a "w" in west.

Conclusion, Heshtar becomes Ooshtar becomes Eastern.

Nuclear Wessels

There's more horseshit in this thread than one finds in a Kentucky stable. The French, whether in France or Canada pronounce "th" as "t." The word théâtre (theater in English) is pronounced "tay-ahtre." (It is almost impossible to teach an American how to correctly pronounce the French "r.") Most of what RR/Cobbler is doing here is creating false cognates--what the French call faux amis, false friends. Just because two words sound similar does not mean that they are similar. The German word lieder does not mean ladder, and it does not mean leader--it means songs. Je m'en doute in French does not mean "I doubt it," it means "I suspect." All of the silly derivations in this thread, which only serve to support the author's spurious claims, constitute false cognates. The author believes it's true because he wants to believe that, and not because he has an etymological leg to stand on. Indeed, I'm sure he does not trust dictionaries--they won't substantiate his silly claims.

"Steven" is no originally German first name (that would be Stefan).
To pronounce "Oost" as "Oosht" can be done ... when you ridicule that pronunciation.

There's a lot more than just dictionaries to get the origin of a word. (Onomastics/onomatology.)
And even online audio samples can be help ...

So, what you are saying is, some people do pronounce it that way.



Very interesting. I need to look into them.

I wonder if some people pronounce your name Valter.

I totally missed the obvious (early morning may be an excuse): of many Germans: "s-t" and "s-p" at the beginning of a word is often pronounced as "sch-t" and "sch-p".
Only the North-Germans stumble over a sharp stone ("stolpern über einen spitzen Stein") - originally it was spoken in the whole of northern Germany, but it was also normal in cities like Hannover (especially they claimed to be the only to speak correct German) . In the 19th century, the southern German "sch-p/sch-t" variant spread.

This is at the heart of all your arguments with non rightwingers. You have a tendency to judge and extrapolate from your own cultural point of view. It's a lot easier than reading up on sources and getting your facts straight.

Then when challenged instead of accepting you're wrong you try to argue the odds hence your completely pointless argument with Setanta, although that did keep him occupied and gave him a rare sense of purpose.

Walter knows more about German than any of us, defer to his superior knowledge instead of trying to score cheap points.

You did the same with me by going on about British Republicans as if they're the British version of American Republicans. They're not anything like them, British Republicans are those of us who want to abolish the monarchy and form a Republic, and most are very left wing.

Seeing things as British/German/Italian versions of something American may help your understanding short term but it's wrong. There are no foreign versions of American things, (except for stuff like coca cola,) they're all culturally different and unique, and you miss learning about the real differences by seeing things in an over simplified way.

If you want to muse and ponder fair enough, but you have to accept that musings and ponderings can't hold a candle to real evidence, research and facts.

It is wonderful how you can attack someone and not add one shred of evidence related to the argument.

And I love how you can attack Americans who, invented the internet, that they cannot possibly know any culture other than their own.

And ost, east or isht, I did post research unlike you who are just picking favorites to further your own bias.

Without once considering I might be right,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far-right_politics_in_the_United_Kingdom

here is your, errm "link" from Wikipedia (go argue with them not me)

Far right politics in the United Kingdom have existed since at least the 1930s, with the formation of Nazi, fascist and anti-semitic movements. It went on to acquire more explicitly racial connotations, being dominated in the 1960s and 1970s by self-proclaimed white nationalist organisations that oppose non-white and Muslim immigration, such as the National Front (NF), the British Movement (BM) and British National Party (BNP). Since the 1980s, the term has mainly been used to describe those who express the wish to preserve what they perceive to be British culture, and those who campaign against the presence of non-indigenous ethnic minorities and what they perceive to be an excessive number of asylum seekers.

The NF and the BNP have been strongly opposed to non-white immigration. They have encouraged the repatriation of ethnic minorities: the NF favours compulsory repatriation, while the BNP favours voluntary repatriation. The BNP have had a number of local councillors in some inner-city areas of east London, and towns in Yorkshire and Lancashire, such as Burnley and Keighley. East London has been the bedrock of far-right support in the UK since the 1930s, whereas BNP success in the north of England is a newer phenomenon. The only other part of the country to provide any significant level of support for such views is the West Midlands.

Comment:
I choose to use the internet for my sources unlike you who just pick favorites.

As I said, I have been studying the Babylonian religion as it relates to western religion for 30 years.

It is not enough that the "west" is related to a fertility goddess but to suggest the east is also related to a goddess of the dawn is simply blasphemy to you.

If you have any information regarding this specific subject please add it otherwise please refrain from simply saying someone is better than me or my education.

Besides also, like Setanta, you being filled with nothing more than animosity and arrogance because I blew your theory of the word Easter out of the water completely when you posted it here condescending and contradicting me.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesperus

In Greek mythology, Hesperus /ˈhɛspərəs/ (Ancient Greek: Ἓσπερος Hesperos) is the Evening Star, the planet Venus in the evening. ... Hesperus' Roman equivalent is Vesper (cf. "evening", "supper", "evening star", "west").

West is Venus...

East is Ishtar or Astarte

The Star of Ishtar or Star of Inanna is a symbol of the ancient Sumerian goddess Inanna and her East Semitic counterpart Ishtar. Alongside the lion, it was one of Ishtar's primary symbols. Because Ishtar was associated with the planet Venus, the star is also known as the Star of Venus.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_of_Ishtar

Easter or Ishtar?
by Al Perez
The word Easter appears once in the King James version of the Bible.Herod has put Peter in prison, "intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people" (Acts 12:4). Yet in the original Greek text the word is not Easter, but Pesach, that is Passover. So why was the name changed? Please read on, and remember Exodus 34:14; For you shall worship no other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous G-d.

"Asherah" the Greek form of this word from the Septuagint is "Astarte", who is the Babylonian goddess of the sea, sea being symbolic of people, and consort of the god El. She was the mother of several gods, including Ba'al, the Babylonian god of the sun. These deities were soon adopted by the Canaanites when they named these female deities the Asherah or Asherim. These deities were made of wood carved from a type of evergreen tree, or often they were set up in Canaanite homes as full trees cut down from a forest. The Asherim normally were highly acknowledged during two specific occasions. First and foremost, they were the fertility gods of the spring equinox, when the days and nights were approximately the same in length, signifying the beginning of living things growing for the summer season. A very common practice in the Canaanite religion was performed on the first Sunday of the equinox. The families would face east to await the rising of the sun, which was the chief symbol of the sun god, Ba'al. Later on during the day, the children of the Canaanite parents would often go and hunt for eggs, which were symbolic of sex, fertility and new life. It was believed that these eggs came from rabbits, which in the pagan world were symbolic of lust, sexual prowess and reproduction. The Canaanites, however, were not the only ones who worshiped rabbits as deities. The Egyptians and the Persians (Babylon) also held rabbits in high esteem because they believed that rabbits first came from the divine Phoenix birds, who once ruled the ancient skies until they were attacked by other gods in a power struggle. When they were struck down, they reincarnated into rabbits, but kept the ability to produce eggs like the ancient birds to show their origins.

Other stories concerning the egg rose later in the Middle Ages by the Anglo-Saxons, where they believed the origin of the Universe had the earth being hatched out of an enormous egg. Decorating eggs came about to honor their pagan gods and were often presented as gifts to other families to bring them fertility and sexual success during the coming year. And secondly, they were highly worshiped and celebrated during the winter solstice. As according to Jer. 10:1-5; Is. 40:19-20; 41:7 and 44:9-20, the pagans would go out into the forest and do one of two things. Either they chopped down a tree and carved a female deity out of it, or they would simply bring the tree into the house and decorate it with gold and silver ornaments symbolizing the sun and the moon while nailing a stand on the bottom so it would not totter or tip over.

Out of this practice came many other variations of these pagan festivals until the Roman Catholic Church adopted the Asherah worship and named it EASTER around 155 A.D. According to the CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA, Easter was named after a pagan goddess of the Anglo-Saxons named Eostre, the goddess of the dawn. A great controversy arose between the Catholic Church and the Greek Orthodox Church in 325 A.D. on whether to celebrate Easter on Sundays or on whatever day the Jewish Passover fell upon. Unfortunately, the Greeks lost a lot of followers and the Catholics contended that keeping Easter on Sundays would stimulate the practices of both the Christian world and the pagan worshipers. Note that the word CATHOLIC means "universal" or "one world" in thought, concept and practice. Hence, since the original practice of Asherah worship we now have in our time the celebration of Easter, a counterfeit holiday to the true Christian festival of the Passover which was instituted in the Bible and completed in the New Testament when Christ died on the cross as our Passover Lamb.

"...For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us."

Comment:
The catholic church used Eostre to cover up the Babylonian origin of the festival that had no real ritualistic relation to the goddess of the Anglo-Saxons.

But it did convince the Brits to accept the holiday.

Alexander Hislop (The Two Babylons)
Then look at Easter. What means the term Easter itself? It is not a Christian name. It bears its Chaldean
origin on its very forehead. Easter is nothing else than Astarte, one of the titles of Beltis, the queen of
heaven, whose name, as pronounced by the people Nineveh, was evidently identical with that now in
common use in this country. That name, as found by Layard on the Assyrian monuments, is Ishtar. The
worship of Bel and Astarte was very early introduced into Britain, along with the Druids, "the priests of
the groves." Some have imagined that the Druidical worship was first introduced by the Phoenicians,
who, centuries before the Christian era, traded to the tin-mines of Cornwall. But the unequivocal traces
of that worship are found in regions of the British islands where the Phoenicians never penetrated, and it
has everywhere left indelible marks of the strong hold which it must have had on the early British mind.
From Bel, the 1st of May is still called Beltane in the Almanac; and we have customs still lingering at
this day among us, which prove how exactly the worship of Bel or Moloch (for both titles belonged to
the same god) had been observed even in the northern parts of this island. "The late Lady Baird, of Fern
Tower, in Perthshire," says a writer in "Notes and Queries," thoroughly versed in British antiquities,
"told me, that every year, at Beltane (or the 1st of May), a number of men and women assemble at an
ancient Druidical circle of stones on her property near Crieff. They light a fire in the centre, each person
puts a bit of oat-cake in a shepherd's bonnet; they all sit down, and draw blindfold a piece from the
bonnet. One piece has been previously blackened, and whoever gets that piece has to jump through the
fire in the centre of the circle, and pay a forfeit. This is, in fact, a part of the ancient worship of Baal, and
the person on whom the lot fell was previously burnt as a sacrifice. Now, the passing through the fire
represents that, and the payment of the forfeit redeems the victim." If Baal was thus worshipped in
Britain, it will not be difficult to believe that his consort Astarte was also adored by our ancestors, and
that from Astarte, whose name in Nineveh was Ishtar, the religious solemnities of April, as now
practised, are called by the name of Easter--that month, among our Pagan ancestors, having been called
Easter-monath. The festival, of which we read in Church history, under the name of Easter, in the third
or fourth centuries, was quite a different festival from that now observed in the Romish Church, and at
that time was not known by any such name as Easter. It was called Pasch, or the Passover, and though
not of Apostolic institution, * was very early observed by many professing Christians, in
commemoration of the death and resurrection of Christ.
* Socrates, the ancient ecclesiastical historian, after a lengthened account of the different
ways in which Easter was observed in different countries in his time--i.e., the fifth
century--sums up in these words: "Thus much already laid down may seem a sufficient
treatise to prove that the celebration of the feast of Easter began everywhere more of
custom than by any commandment either of Christ or any Apostle." (Hist. Ecclesiast.)
Every one knows that the name "Easter," used in our translation of Acts 12:4, refers not
to any Christian festival, but to the Jewish Passover. This is one of the few places in our
version where the translators show an undue bias.
That festival agreed originally with the time of the Jewish Passover, when Christ was crucified, a period
which, in the days of Tertullian, at the end of the second century, was believed to have been the 23rd of
March. That festival was not idolatrous, and it was preceded by no Lent. "It ought to be known," said
Cassianus, the monk of Marseilles, writing in the fifth century, and contrasting the primitive Church
with the Church in his day, "that the observance of the forty days had no existence, so long as the
perfection of that primitive Church remained inviolate.

Hislop continued:
Such is the history of Easter. The popular observances that still attend the period of its celebration amply
confirm the testimony of history as to its Babylonian character. The hot cross buns of Good Friday, and
the dyed eggs of Pasch or Easter Sunday, figured in the Chaldean rites just as they do now. The "buns,"
known too by that identical name, were used in the worship of the queen of heaven, the goddess Easter,
as early as the days of Cecrops, the founder of Athens--that is, 1500 years before the Christian era. "One
species of sacred bread," says Bryant, "which used to be offered to the gods, was of great antiquity, and
called Boun." Diogenes Laertius, speaking of this offering being made by Empedocles, describes the
chief ingredients of which it was composed, saying, "He offered one of the sacred cakes called Boun,
which was made of fine flour and honey." The prophet Jeremiah takes notice of this kind of offering
when he says, "The children gather wood, the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough,
to make cakes to the queen of heaven." *
* Jeremiah 7:18. It is from the very word here used by the prophet that the word "bun"
seems to be derived. The Hebrew word, with the points, was pronounced Khavan, which
in Greek became sometimes Kapan-os (PHOTIUS, Lexicon Syttoge); and, at other times,
Khabon (NEANDER, in KITTO'S Biblical Cyclopoedia). The first shows how Khvan,
pronounced as one syllable, would pass into the Latin panis, "bread," and the second
how, in like manner, Khvon would become Bon or Bun. It is not to be overlooked that
our common English word Loa has passed through a similar process of formation. In
Anglo-Saxon it was Hlaf.
The hot cross buns are not now offered, but eaten, on the festival of Astarte; but this leaves no doubt as
to whence they have been derived. The origin of the Pasch eggs is just as clear. The ancient Druids bore
an egg, as the sacred emblem of their order. In the Dionysiaca, or mysteries of Bacchus, as celebrated in
Athens, one part of the nocturnal ceremony consisted in the consecration of an egg. The Hindoo fables
celebrate their mundane egg as of a golden colour. The people of Japan make their sacred egg to have
been brazen. In China, at this hour, dyed or painted eggs are used on sacred festivals, even as in this
country. In ancient times eggs were used in the religious rites of the Egyptians and the Greeks, and were
hung up for mystic purposes in their temples. From Egypt these sacred eggs can be distinctly traced to
the banks of the Euphrates. The classic poets are full of the fable of the mystic egg of the Babylonians;
and thus its tale is told by Hyginus, the Egyptian, the learned keeper of the Palatine library at Rome, in
the time of Augustus, who was skilled in all the wisdom of his native country: "An egg of wondrous size
is said to have fallen from heaven into the river Euphrates. The fishes rolled it to the bank, where the
doves having settled upon it, and hatched it, out came Venus, who afterwards was called the Syrian
Goddess"--that is, Astarte. Hence the egg became one of the symbols of Astarte or Easter; and
accordingly, in Cyprus, one of the chosen seats of the worship of Venus, or Astarte, the egg of wondrous
size was represented on a grand scale.

I wasn't attacking you, I was giving you sound advice.



More bullshit. One of our guys did that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Berners-Lee<br />

Get your bloody facts straight then you can concentrate on the things Americans did invent like supersizing.

I never claimed we don't have far right groups over here, we do but they're no way near as big as they are over there and they don't call themselves Republicans.

https://www.history.com/news/who-invented-the-internet

The first workable prototype of the Internet came in the late 1960s with the creation of ARPANET, or the Advanced Research Projects Agency Network. Originally funded by the U.S. Department of Defense, ARPANET used packet switching to allow multiple computers to communicate on a single network. The technology continued to grow in the 1970s after scientists Robert Kahn and Vinton Cerf developed Transmission Control Protocol and Internet Protocol, or TCP/IP, a communications model that set standards for how data could be transmitted between multiple networks. ARPANET adopted TCP/IP on January 1, 1983, and from there researchers began to assemble the “network of networks” that became the modern Internet. The online world then took on a more recognizable form in 1990, when computer scientist Tim Berners-Lee invented the World Wide Web. While it’s often confused with the Internet itself, the web is actually just the most common means of accessing data online in the form of websites and hyperlinks. The web helped popularize the Internet among the public, and served as a crucial step in developing the vast trove of information that most of us now access on a daily basis.

Comment:
Sir Timothy John Berners-Lee was 9 years old when the internet was invented.

Also, I don't care if they don't call themselves "republicans" if it quacks like a duck it is a duck.

I do not claim to know everything and I do not mind learning news stuff but am not going to drop everything because of someone's bias.

Especially when I have ample reason to the contrary.

You angle away from facts like Trump...

"We don't have right wing republicans in Britain", then, "they are not like yours"... Uh, your right wing is just as reprehensible. "We don't have that many..." lol, remember Brexit?

As the participants veer off into Fantasy Land, this thread just gets more and more entertaining.

I unlike many biblical scholars do not judge paganism or monotheism.

I just sit back and marvel at the apparent attempts to discredit one another.

On one hand we have paganism that adores and worships knowledge and on the other hand we have monotheism that promotes the idea that knowledge was given to humans by an evil snake.

I have always been suspicious of the later.

Especially with the implications that "women are not supposed to think but simply obey".

I tend to think knowledge be it good or bad is a healthy thing for a civilized society (including women).

Ignorance is an easy way to be misled. This is why I do not fault paganism the way many Christian and Bible (monotheistic) scholars often do.

I find the pagan system of religion both full of wonder and evil just as monotheism has these elements also. Both systems contain their barbarism and their redeeming qualities.

The ideal course is to learn and take from them, the best of both worlds.

Once again I will not be reading Setanta's posts until he learns to be less insulting.

I value my peace of mind.

Not for someone like me.

So you think you can culturally appropriate our political system now. Republican is a name for an American right wing party. The word republican means someone who believes in a republic as opposed to other forms of government.

Only in America is the word republican connected to the far right. Everywhere else it means something very different. When you call our far right parties republicans you are not only displaying an incredible amount of ignorance you're also being incredibly arrogant. Most members of the far right actually support the monarchy so they're definitely not republicans.

The internet as we know it did not exist until Tim Berners Lee invented the world wide web, a military phone based communications system is not the same thing at all.

And none of this would have existed if we'd not invented the computer in the first place.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus_computer

The Brexit referendum has **** all to do with the far right. Many of the leave voters were left wing.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labour_Leave

You need to get your facts right before you start pontificating on stuff you know absolutely nothing about.

Our republicans fought a civil war to free slaves and now the party is full of racists.
If it quacks like a racist it is a racist...

Brexit was a racist inspired vote...

also...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transistor
The transistor is the fundamental building block of modern electronic devices, and is ubiquitous in modern electronic systems. Julius Edgar Lilienfeld (Jewish Austro-Hungarian-born German-American physicist and electronic engineer) patented a field-effect transistor in 1926[1] but it was not possible to actually construct a working device at that time. The first practically implemented device was a point-contact transistor invented in 1947 by American physicists John Bardeen, Walter Brattain, and William Shockley. The transistor revolutionized the field of electronics, and paved the way for smaller and cheaper radios, calculators, and computers, among other things. The transistor is on the list of IEEE milestones in electronics,[2] and Bardeen, Brattain, and Shockley shared the 1956 Nobel Prize in Physics for their achievement.[3]

Invented the variable resister
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otis_Boykin
http://www.black-inventor.com/Otis-Boykin.asp

Alan Turing is often called the father of modern computing. He was a brilliant mathematician and logician. He developed the idea of the modern computer and artificial intelligence. During the Second World War he worked for the government breaking the enemies codes and Churchill said he shortened the war by two years.

Comment:
The British right wing thanked Alan Turing for ending the war with castration and "accidental" cyanide poisoning.

also,
leaving the EU was racist... the Russians played on that fear and the British responded in suit.

The uncomfortable question: Was the Brexit vote based on racism?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/06/25/the-uncomfortable-question-was-the-brexit-vote-based-on-racism/

excerpt:
Despite a backlash to this rhetoric, when voting day came around, more British citizens chose to leave the E.U. than stay. They did so against the advice of the majority of the country's politicians and many experts from around the world, who said the country's political and economic standing would be deeply hurt. Some experts suggest the explanation for that decision has to at least partly be put down to racism and xenophobia.


Comment:
My facts are not in denial of clear evidence.

Britain has a racism problem, in the US we call those racists republicans you can call them whatever you want.

Now can we please get back to the discussion of the topic?

It is up to you too to make it interesting.

I have provided the subject and some of my arguments regarding that subject.



Your input has been good here Walter and most of it I agree with, what makes it "entertaining" to me is the free exchange of ideas without insult.

Setanta seems to thrive on the insult and over the years I have been baited and learned it is not worth it.

I also find it a misuse of the forum the way he has treated newcomers.