The devil is our friend

Cyracuz, wouldn't you rather have Milton's sonnet on his blindness?

My way of marking.

No. I'd rather have the devil. He's got all the good albums

My way of saying I don't know what you're talking about...

Cyracuz, that was funnnnneeeeee about the albums. Actually, the creation of Lucifer and Michael(good angel vs. bad angel) came from Milton's Paradise Lost. I'm not certain that the tale exists in the Bible, but I will check. (memory so far)

But to discuss your question as it was given:

Any entity who plays God and pits one good person against the other is bordering on evil. It happens often in families when a parent whether consciously or unconsciously, pits one sibling against another.

But Letty, do we not live in a tower of souls?
Mother nature has us all competing against eachother.


I am ashamed to admit that I haven't read Paradise lost...

Well, Cyracuz, Paradise Lost is very difficult to read, but not Milton's sonnets. No apologies needed, because I goofed (a little) as well:

There is only one place in the Christian Bible that the story of lucifer appears:

Lucifer means lightbringer, from the Latin lux "light" and ferre "to bear or bring." The word Lucifer is found in only one place in the Bible -- Isaiah 14:12 --

As for nature and God, etc. I don't have a clue about that, but it is something worth considering, my friend.

I am interested to see what others will say, however.

(aside: I will dedicate a song to you on the radio. <smile>)

Revelation 12:7-9 "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

So if the Devil was cast to the earth... where is he??

ME!! I AM THE DEVIL!!

And yes I'm your friend.

What I really think is that Satan is a chatolic invention. The word is derived from arabic, considered a filthy tounge in the middle ages, and means adversary.

Since we're talking fable here, I'll tell a story.

God didn't want to interfere in creation even though he saw that humans stumbled in the dark. The devil pitied the humans and pleaded their case before god. He begged god to let the humans into heaven when they died, but god said no. Those who are ready will find their way, he said.

(God created everything as an experiment to answer the questions of his own origin and identity. To see if it might produce beings like himself. He doesn't want to interfere)

Anyway, the devil pleaded with god, and god asked him if he was challenging his divine plan. Then the devil asked god to live one lifetime as a man, to witness their existence, then he would see that they should be let into heaven. God does this, and we all know how that went.

But before he does this he grants the devils wish. He casts him out of heaven and says that he cannot come back to live in heaven until all the souls of humans have come. He has to be the last. That is the punishment he gets for not trusting in god totally. He becomes the adversary. But over what? The devil was our advocate.


Here's Tom with the weather.

Cyracuz, good plot. So, in the end Lucifer sort of sacrifed himself as a martyr. God saw the trickery of it and punished Lucifer for questioning The Plan. Which therefore motivates Lucifer toward hating mankind and fuels his objective to suffer men for eternity or at least until the last Holiday of the Universe; Armageddon.

You should write a novel if one doesn't already exist. I could see it becoming a Broadway play, maybe a movie, even a TV mini-series. It would certainly be MUCH more controversial than any of those Christ Productions produced throughout the years. Oh yeah, and it just happens to be an Ineffable Divine Plan, not just divine.

BTW, if you decide to run with that plot idea, I would be interested in contributing as a co-writer.

Oh yeah, and for everyone else, here are the actual mentions of the Great Human Advocate, in the Bible...

Abaddon (Revelation 9:11).
Accuser of our brethren (Revelation 12:10).
Adversary (1 Peter 5:8).
Angel of Light (2 Corinthians 11:14).
Angel of the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:11).
Antichrist (1 John 4:3).
Apollyon (Revelation 9:11).
Beelzebub (Matthew 12:24).
Belial (2 Corinthians 6:15).
Crooked serpent (Isaiah 27:1).
Devil (Matthew 4:1).
Dragon (Isaiah 27:1; Revelation 12:3; 20:2).
Enemy (Matthew 13:39).
Father of lies (John 8:44).
God of this World (2 Corinthians 4:4).
Leviathan (Isaiah 27:1).
Liar (John 8:44).
Lucifer (Isaiah 14:12).
Lying spirit (1 Kings 22:22).
Murderer (John 8:44).
Old serpent (Revelation 12:9; 20:2).
Piercing serpent (Isaiah 27:1).
Power of darkness (Colossians 1:13).
Prince of the devils (Matthew 12:24).
Prince of the power of the air (Ephesians 2:2).
Prince of this world (John 14:30).
Roaring lion (1 Peter 5:8).
Ruler of this world (John 12:31; 16:11).
Satan (1 Chronicles 21:1; Job 1:6; John 13:27; Acts 5:3; 26:18; Romans 16:20).
Serpent (Genesis 3:4, 14; 2 Corinthians 11:3).
Son of the Morning (Isaiah 14:12).
Spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience (Ephesians 2:2).
Swine (Matthew 7:6).
Tempter (Matthew 4:3; 1 Thessalonians 3:5).
Unclean spirit (Matthew 12:43).
Wicked one (Matthew 13:19, 38).

The concept of Satan is from the old testament. Thus significantly predating the middle ages. Haven't you read Job? According to the OT satan works for God as well, intriguing relationship.

Once, many years ago a god died, Baldir. He was much loved by everyone on Earth and so the Gods went to the hall of the dead and asked "can we have our brother back?"... they were told that he would be returned if everyone on Earth wept for him. So the Gods told the entire earth to weep for Baldir, yet Loki took on human form as an old man and refused to weep. Baldir was never brought back to life.

Did he do it out of evil? Or did Loki preserve the way of the world and prevent the gods from reaching the hubris that they could have anything they desired?

Misteltoe. Frigg, Balder's mother extracted an oath from every creature, object and force in nature not to harm Balder after he has dreamed of his death.

So, now, when nothing can harm Balder the other gods amuse themselves with using him for targetpractice for their knives and arrows.

Loke, who was jealous of Balder, found out that the mistletoe tree was the only creature that hadn't given an oath, and made a dart of the tree and tricked Balder's blind twin brother Hod to throw the dart.

But you were talking about Loke's motives. Jealousy is the given reason in the story. He not only disguised himself as the witch Thokk and refused to mourn Balder. He was, after all responsible for his death too.

You got it wrong Katac. Lucifer hates nothing. The devil loves the humans so much that he is willing to endure hell himself so that they may see heaven eventually. He's not allowed to come back and stay in heaven until the last human has come.

And god did not punish anyone. Lucifer was the brightest of all the angles, and when he questioned gods intent it was in his nature to do so. Part of the plan so to speak.


There is a novel called Memnoch the Devil, by Anne Rice, that contains this plot. It's a part of the vampire chronicles, so the plot comes somewhat in the background.

Though I didn't know that half of the legend it still, much like the part I said, would demonstrate Loki preserving balance and undoing hubris. Whether through intention or not.



The story was not written by Lokii... thus we must be skeptical about any motives ascribed to him.

I'm not saying that his actions were necessarily motivated by a higher morality, just suggesting the possibility.

Loke is the troublemaker and intrigue maker among the gods. He is originally a Jotne, a sort of troll, but gets his blood mixed with Odin, and is included in among the gods.

He is a symbol of all the bad qualities of man.

This is all ancient mythology, so it's kind of hard to know who wrote it.

The balance you speak of preservs itself. You saw it as the gods being put in their place. It was an evil act, and the fact that something good might have come of it doesn't change that.

It's pretty clear that the person who wrote it didn't like Lokii. Probably didn't have a clue why Lokii did the things that he did.



We need gods to make it rain, create the earth, explain why one group wins a battle instead of the other... yet their balance and power seem set, according to prophecy no less, and we can accept that without question as a natural process?



It was seen as an evil act. To an outside observer who doesn't understand our society prisons may seem evil. We have our reasons for having prisons, likewise Lokii may have had reasons for his actions...

Maybe.

Or he was just jealous. This is all idle speculation.