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The real reasons for Bush the Second's war against Iraq

 
 
Reply Thu 27 Feb, 2003 02:28 am
A friend asked for my opinion about US foreign policy. I've had to think the subject through to muddled inconclusive conclusions. I've been pulled in several directions as events unfold. It seems to me there are several scenarios one can identify as the real reasons for the Bush Administration's Iraq war impetus. Take your choice or add more of your own:

Legitimate concerns about Hussein's store of weapons of mass destruction; primarily regarding their possible sale to international terrorist organizations. (The same concern also applies to North Korea with a different approach to resolving the more likely threat.)

Controlling Iraqi oil fields and weaken OPEC. Use Iraqi oil profits to pay for the war and any occupation-restoration-humanitarian financial expenses in both Iraq and in Afghanistan.

Diverting US attention away from Osama bin Laden during the US 2002 mid-term elections and the failure to find him and to destroy his organization. We know where Hussein is while we don't have a clue to bin Laden's whereabouts.

Karl Rove's 2002 mid-term election campaign strategy to rally voters to support President Bush and his party to gain control of the US Senate - the strategy may have simply gotten out of control once initiated. Don't be surprised to see the same "wag the dog" ruse again in 2004's presidential election. The US has a history of supporting war-time presidents.

Same reasons as above, but to divert US citizen attention away from devastated economy, corporate corruption, failed foreign and domestic policies---all to assure election of Republicans to regain control of the Senate and the reelection of Bush the Second in 2004. Retaining Republican power is the impetus behind everything being done.

Retaliation against Saddam Hussein for trying to kill George the First.

Bush the Second is just a new breed of meglomanic with imperialistic Napleonistic traits. One wonders if he will crown himself as savior of the world despite his (and Ronald Reagan's) Christian Fundamentalist belief in apocalypticism. The following site is of interest: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/apocalypse/.

I could go on and on, but it is 1:10 in the morning and my brain goes into hibernation after midnight.
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Type: Discussion • Score: 2 • Views: 2,960 • Replies: 21
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gezzy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Feb, 2003 02:53 am
Just watching.
0 Replies
 
Tantor
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2003 06:49 pm
Re: The real reasons for Bush the Second's war against Iraq
BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:

It seems to me there are several scenarios one can identify as the real reasons for the Bush Administration's Iraq war impetus. Take your choice or add more of your own:

Legitimate concerns about Hussein's store of weapons of mass destruction; primarily regarding their possible sale to international terrorist organizations. (The same concern also applies to North Korea with a different approach to resolving the more likely threat.)


Had you stopped here, you would have enjoyed the virtue of being correct.

BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:

Controlling Iraqi oil fields and weaken OPEC. Use Iraqi oil profits to pay for the war and any occupation-restoration-humanitarian financial expenses in both Iraq and in Afghanistan.


We don't need Iraqi oil to pay for the war. If we help the Iraqis develop their oil fields and sell their oil, the resulting savings from the drop in oil price will repay the war costs over the next ten years. The increased oil revenue will enable the Iraqis to rebuild their country into a liberal democracy with free markets and free speech.

OPEC is already weak, proving the historic weakness of cartels to maintain themselves.

However, cheap oil would certainly harm Saudi Arabia, which blew its money educating a generation of theology students instead of people who could create jobs for the population explosion which resulted from their oil windfall. That means less money to pursue a bloody jihad agains the West.

BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:

Diverting US attention away from Osama bin Laden during the US 2002 mid-term elections and the failure to find him and to destroy his organization. We know where Hussein is while we don't have a clue to bin Laden's whereabouts.


We don't need the entire US military chasing Bin Laden just as you don't need an entire work crew to dig a single post hole. It only takes half a division to control Afghanistan. We have special forces in the hinterlands chasing Osama. The arrest today of Khalid Shaikh Mohammed demonstrates our pursuit of the Al Qaeda leadership is making steady progress.

BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:

Karl Rove's 2002 mid-term election campaign strategy to rally voters to support President Bush and his party to gain control of the US Senate - the strategy may have simply gotten out of control once initiated. Don't be surprised to see the same "wag the dog" ruse again in 2004's presidential election. The US has a history of supporting war-time presidents.


Sep 11 is not a fictitious event, created by the President, as you seem to infer with your "wag the dog" argument. Likewise, the WMD in Iraq are not works of fiction. There is a real threat which you should recognize.

BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:

Same reasons as above, but to divert US citizen attention away from devastated economy, corporate corruption, failed foreign and domestic policies---all to assure election of Republicans to regain control of the Senate and the reelection of Bush the Second in 2004. Retaining Republican power is the impetus behind everything being done.


This is some real nonsense. The economy is not devastated but growing. We are not even in a recession. For information on what a devastated economy looks like, examine the Great Depression.

BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:

Retaliation against Saddam Hussein for trying to kill George the First.


Are you seriously making an argument that attempts to intimidate American leadership by trying to assassinate an ex-president should not bring retaliation upon the wrong-doer? Please spell your argument out in detail. Such attacks should be dealt with harshly to make such terror too costly to contemplate.

BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:

Bush the Second is just a new breed of meglomanic with imperialistic Napleonistic traits. One wonders if he will crown himself as savior of the world despite his (and Ronald Reagan's) Christian Fundamentalist belief in apocalypticism.


Such silly hyperbole demonstrates that your opposition to Bush is irrational.

Tantor
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2003 07:00 pm
tantor i am in shock, shock i tell you
Quote:
a liberal democracy

next thing you know you will be telling us the iraqi's will be electing Bill Clinton as their first president!
0 Replies
 
Tantor
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2003 07:39 pm
dyslexia wrote:
tantor i am in shock, shock i tell you
Quote:
a liberal democracy

next thing you know you will be telling us the iraqi's will be electing Bill Clinton as their first president!


Dyslexia,

A liberal democracy is one where everyone has the right to vote, including women and people who do not own property.

Go back to college and ask for your tuition money back. You have been cheated. You can count on me to support your case and see that you are properly restituted.

You're Welcome,


Tantor
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2003 07:43 pm
gosh tantor i thought it was your task in life to re-educate us fallen liberals, btw i never finished 8th grade so there is no tuition rebate. I will however use you as a reference should i need employment at the animal shelter.
0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2003 08:28 pm
Dyslexia, as a Forum Guide, perhaps you can tell me if "Tantor" is a combative frequent poster on other sites using other names such as "Trashmaster", etc. His bellicose style reminds me of him.
0 Replies
 
williamhenry3
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2003 10:22 pm
Tantor<

In your rants against BumbleBee, you did that author a disservice because Sept. 11 was never mentioned in that post.

What was being referenced was the fact that Karl Rove, et. al., stoked up the war flames for Dubya with S. Hussein as the world's meanest villain.

With this buildup, the American people decided that the GOP was best for the nation.

What you have forgotten, Tantor, is that the real villain in all of this is none other than Osama bin Laden. bin Laden's terrorists were responsible for Sept. 11, 2001, not Sadaam Hussein.

The implication here, Tantor, -- as you dust off your high school diploma -- is that our president has put the real villain, bin Laden, on hold while his administration creates a Hitleresque Hussein who has to be annihilated for the good of the entire planet. Along comes Dubya on his white stallion to save the world Exclamation

Meanwhile, bin Laden is left to gather more followers and more weapons. If another Sept. 11-type incident occurs, Tantor, it is because people like you did not get the real message.
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Mar, 2003 08:54 am
wh -- I've watched these people who have little concept of what really happened on 9/11 rationalize themselves into an insurmountable malaise of denial. However, Saddam Hussein's government may be playing right into the adminstration's hands through their own clunky and deceptive diplomacy and this will lead to nothing but war. Trying to characterize everyone who is reticent about this administration's policy in mounting this war as "leftists" and "appeasers" is the mantra the pro-war faction endlessly falls back on. This is simply not true and they know it. So let's figure on the taxpayer having the burden of the trillions of dollars that likely will be spent to invade and occupy Iraq. It's now shaky whether we will have Turkey's crucial participation and I don't see this happening successfully without being able to squeeze from the North. This is unraveling in a "court of the World" whether we like it or not. If we do get cooperation from a substantive coalition, I can see that they will go ahead with this war. What consequences there will be to our economy is clouded in the usual alchemy cooked up by "economists" within the government and countered by many intelligent economic minds outside the government.
0 Replies
 
williamhenry3
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Mar, 2003 01:55 pm
Well stated, Lightwizard.
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Mar, 2003 05:49 pm
Thanks, wh, and now whether they believe the need it or not, let's pray that providence will be kind.
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Mapleleaf
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Mar, 2003 07:10 pm
Good to read you LW.
0 Replies
 
Tantor
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Mar, 2003 07:32 am
BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:
Dyslexia, as a Forum Guide, perhaps you can tell me if "Tantor" is a combative frequent poster on other sites using other names such as "Trashmaster", etc. His bellicose style reminds me of him.


I am Tantor and have used no other name in any posting in any forum, here or elsewhere. Your accusation is baseless.

However, pursuing such accusations does evade defending your arguments, doesn't it?

Tantor
0 Replies
 
Tantor
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Mar, 2003 07:49 am
williamhenry3 wrote:
Tantor,In your rants against BumbleBee, you did that author a disservice because Sept. 11 was never mentioned in that post.


If you actually saw the movie "Wag The Dog", it depicts a scenario where the government invents a casus belli in a Hollywood studio. I take the poster at his word when he accuses Bush of a "Wag the Dog" strategy. It's wrong.

williamhenry3 wrote:

What was being referenced was the fact that Karl Rove, et. al., stoked up the war flames for Dubya with S. Hussein as the world's meanest villain.


Your error here is to think of this as a public relations exercise. It's not. The threat from Iraq is real. Saddam Hussein is quite the villian. Do you deny that? I'd be interested in your argument that Saddam is not a villian, a world class villian.

williamhenry3 wrote:

What you have forgotten, Tantor, is that the real villain in all of this is none other than Osama bin Laden. bin Laden's terrorists were responsible for Sept. 11, 2001, not Sadaam Hussein.


There is more than one villian here. There is plenty of circumstantial evidence that Saddam Hussein may well have been the ultimate patron of the Sep 11 suicide skyjackers.

williamhenry3 wrote:

The implication here, Tantor, -- as you dust off your high school diploma -- is that our president has put the real villain, bin Laden, on hold while his administration creates a Hitleresque Hussein who has to be annihilated for the good of the entire planet. Along comes Dubya on his white stallion to save the world Exclamation


Actually, I have a graduate degree and much more. I'd be happy to compare educations with you.

The entire government does not need to devote itself to pursuing Bin Laden. We only need half a division to control Afghanistan. We have special forces pursuing Bin Laden. The arrest of his henchman this week demonstrate that our dismantling of Al Qaeda is progressing handsomely. We don't need the entire military pursuing Bin Laden any more than you need a whole road gang digging a single post hole.

Hussein is more Stalinesque than Hitleresque. Eliminating him would be good for the planet. I would be very interested to hear your arguments why preserving Hussein in power would be good for anyone except Saddam. Perhaps you can use that superior knowledge of yours to explain this.

williamhenry3 wrote:

Meanwhile, bin Laden is left to gather more followers and more weapons. If another Sept. 11-type incident occurs, Tantor, it is because people like you did not get the real message.


Bin Laden did not pull off Sep 11 alone. He had help from an intelligence organization, probably Iraq. If Bin Laden is indeed gathering more supporters, then why are his attacks falling off? If he has become more of a threat, then why have no attacks on America followed Sep 11? As this weeks arrest of his henchman demonstrate, Al Qaeda is on the run. Bin Laden doesn't dare show his face even on videotape. Taking Iraq down will dry up Al Qaeda sources of support and arms. That is the real message.

Tantor
0 Replies
 
Gala
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Mar, 2003 08:19 am
Tantor wrote:

"Are you seriously making an argument that attempts to intimidate American leadership by trying to assassinate an ex-president should not bring retaliation upon the wrong-doer? "

Ah, Tantor, I think the correct term is evil-doer.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Mar, 2003 09:16 am
some people have a "need" to be right, they establish a posture of defense via attacking others.
some people have a "desire" to be right, they establish an attitude to seeking information rather than attacking others.
in real science this is know as the "null hypothesis" in which someone seeks to disprove his own thesis honestly, which leads to increasing his own credibility. it also makes for good science/knowledge.
0 Replies
 
williamhenry3
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Mar, 2003 11:14 am
Tantor<

Thank you for your dissection of my post, which, BTW, I still stand behind.

My time on this Earth is too limited to engage in a futile argument with you. You are entitled to your opinion, as I am mine.

There are not enough words in the English language, however, for you to convert me to your right-wing way of thinking (and vice-versa).

The best threads on A2k engage friendly people in friendly dialogue. You are not one of those people.

Peace.
0 Replies
 
Tantor
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Mar, 2003 09:29 pm
dyslexia wrote:
some people have a "need" to be right, they establish a posture of defense via attacking others.
some people have a "desire" to be right, they establish an attitude to seeking information rather than attacking others.
in real science this is know as the "null hypothesis" in which someone seeks to disprove his own thesis honestly, which leads to increasing his own credibility. it also makes for good science/knowledge.


Real science is advanced by defending your ideas, not by explaining why arguments against them are wrong. If they are good ideas, they hold up under criticism. If not, they don't. In such a case, you might well resort to the ad hominem argument used above, evading a defense of the indefensible.


Tantor
0 Replies
 
Tantor
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Mar, 2003 09:34 pm
williamhenry3 wrote:

There are not enough words in the English language, however, for you to convert me to your right-wing way of thinking (and vice-versa).


If there are no words that can convince you to adopt another position, then by definition your position is irrational.

williamhenry3 wrote:

The best threads on A2k engage friendly people in friendly dialogue. You are not one of those people.


The best ideas have facts and reason to support them. You are unable to defend your ideas for lack of the same. That is why you retire.

Tantor
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Mar, 2003 10:28 pm
In most cases, hypothesis testing involves the following structured sequence of steps. The first step is the formulation of a null hypothesis. The null hypothesis is the assumption that will be maintained by the researcher unless the analysis of data provides significant evidence to disprove it
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