India or Pakistan

brahmin wrote:

mork wrote:

Census figures do not suggest that "3 million+" were killed as you put it. If all you can quote are from the Daily Star (Dhaka) or the Independent (Chittagong) or from "The Hindu" or "Banglapedia" for your references, you do not have a leg to stand on. The figure of 3 million was repeated by the Bengali leader in 1971 (who was killed by his own people subsequently), and no independent, creditable institution or person will touch it. Think about it.

yes i thought about it - and felt that when the muslim population and govt. of bangladesh admits in their official sites and their top news papers that the genocide of Bengali speaking hindus of bangladesh was exceeded in proportion and degree only by the jewish holocaust, then they know what they are talking about.

btw, bengali dont make them hindu, as i am sure you don't know. the leader in question is Mujib-ur-rehaman, a bangladeshi muslim. and they (bangladeshi muslims) witnessed and admit what happened to hindu bengalis in bangladesh under the pakistani army.

i quoted from a million sites already, each more trustworthy than the previous - no further proof is needed.

In other words you cannot dispute my calculation?

Shaikh Rehman actually generated an exodus of Hindus from Bangladesh through the vested property law (1971 onwards) which considered Hindus traiterous. And no, i would not trust what Bangladeshi Muslims or Hindus or Indians have to say on the 1971 war. It's like saying country X is involved in a war. So trust country X to tell the truth about the war. Your logic is illogic.

PS here is my calculation showing that the census poplations are in fact what you would expect for the Hindu population taking into account their migration and fertility rates compared to the Muslim population.

"Some Indian websites (e.g. http://www.hindunet.org/hindu_history/modern/hindu_bangla.html ) think they "prove" that a Hindu genocide of 2.5 million Hindus occurred during 1971 in Bangladesh.

They all over simplify their calculations by not taking into account fertility and migrational differences between the Hindus and rest of the population at the time (other differences would probably affect the figures as well, such as floods and famines etc, but will be ignored for the time being).

The total population of Bangladesh in 1974 = 71.4 million
The total population of East Pakistan in 1961 = 51 million

Factor by which the population increased between 1961-1974 = 1.4

This factor is used to calculate the expected Hindu population of Bangladesh in 1974 from most websites claiming a Hindu genocide occurred
But this factor assumes similar fertilities of the Hindu and Muslim (majority) populations. This is not true as the following articles clearly show.

Quote:

The Association for Land Reform and Development (ALRD), an NGO based in Dhaka states that "the implementation of Enemy Property Act \ Vested Property Act has accelerated the process of mass out-migration of Hindu population from mid 1960s onward. The estimated size of such out-migration (missing Hindu population) during 1964-1991 was 5.3 million, or 538 persons each day since 1964, with as high as 703 persons per day during 1964-1971...... during the same period, the fertility rate among the Hindu population was 13 per cent less than the fertility rates among the Muslim population (estimate based on recent contraceptive use rates). Due to the lack of any reliable fertility estimates, the rate for the Muslims was estimated using an indirect method (Mauldin measure), based on contraceptive prevalence rates

http://www.hrdc.net/sahrdc/hrfeatures/HRF13.htm

Another article from the Journal of Biosocial Science confirms that the fertility rates of Hindus and Muslims in 1970s Bangladesh was not the same

Quote:

Using a unique set of birth registration data from the Demographic Surveillance System of the International Center for Diarrheal Disease Research, Bangladesh, for the period 1974-77, The age-specific fertility rates by religion show that Muslims had higher fertility at all ages in 1974 and 1977 and at older ages in 1975 and 1976. Overall, however, fertility of Hindus is consistently lower than that of Muslims, but the relative differences are under 10%.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=3972858&query_hl=2

So Hindu fertility rates were most likely between about 10 and 13% less than Muslim fertility rates between 1961-1974 (by extrapolating the information to the previous decade).

So take the higher of the Hindu fertility rates quoted (10%, Journal of Biosocial Science), and adjust the factor of 1.4 to accommodate for the lower Hindu fertility rate.

0.9 X 1.4 = 1.26

Hindu population in 1961 in East Pakistan (modern day Bangladesh) = 9.4 million
Expected Hindu population in 1974 =
1.26 X 9.4 million = 11.8 million
Actual Hindu population in Bangladesh in 1974 = 9.6 million

Unaccounted for Hindus = 11.8 million - 9.6 million = 2.2 million.

This figure does not include migration of Hindus out of Bangladesh during this period (very few Hindus immigrated into bangladesh during the same time and can be considered negligible)

Accounting for migration
The first article quoted above states that "The estimated size of such out-migration (missing Hindu population) during 1964-1991 was 5.3 million, or 538 persons each day since 1964, with as high as 703 persons per day during 1964-1971"

Between the 8 years of 1964-1971, around 703 Hindu emigrations per day from Bangladesh took place
Total Hindu emigrations between 1964-1971 = 703 X 365 X 8 = 2.1 million. This leaves only 0.1 million Hindus unaccounted for (2.2 million - 2.1 million)

Between 1972-1974, there were perhaps 480,000 more Hindu emigrations ([5.3 million - 2.1 million] / 20 = 0.16 million emigrants per year. (Figure of 20 is years from 1972-1991). This figure is based on the article above, stating that "The estimated size of such out-migration (missing Hindu population) during 1964-1991 was 5.3 million, or 538 persons each day since 1964".

This would completely account for any remaining Hindus expected to be in the population by 1974.

The Hindu "genocide" is a figment of your wishful imagination, and the ironic thing is you will be sad that it is not true! Shocked

"

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so i am to believe in your doctored calculations ( eg - between 1972-1974 there were PERHAPS 480000 more blah blah) over all the pictures, all the articles from the people who were at ground zero ???

you are in elite company - http://natall.com/national-vanguard/assorted/hoax.html

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mork wrote:

brahmin wrote:

as for the amnesty int, it is the same organization that condemns Israel trying to protect its land and people from the arab terrorists. man doesnt amnesty have better work to do than to side with terrorists ?? the problem is that when terrorists murder by the million, they get away with it cos they are self declared terrorists/muslims - so no one expects anything better from them in any case. but when an army goofs up by even a whisker while trying to tackle the separatist insusgency, all hell breaks loose and pinko organisations start condemning it. truely beautiful, this terrorist-pinko nexus.

So Amnesty.USA is a terrorist organization? That speaks volumes about how desperate you are to deny the reality of the "genocide" that is currently occurring in Kashmir as committed by the Indian Army.

lmao!!!

when did i ever say that the amnesty int was a terrorist org. just that they choose to let the terrorists off the hook.

as for pakistan and kashmir, both have historically belonged to india. both were lived upon by indian people. and both belong to india. and pakistan is a 50 year old terrorist state (with its own nuclear walmart) carved out of land thats always belonged to the indian people. it did not even exist till 55 odd years ago!!!! and has about 15 more years to go before it becomes a failed state, as per the CIA.

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mork wrote:

What part of "the majority of Kashmiris do not want India to rule them" do you not get? That is why the local Kashmiri population is fighting against the Indian Army. (PS Indians in England cheer when India wins a cricket match against England).

Exactly what you describe as bloodthirsty cutthroats(Gujarat massacres of Muslims, Kashmir etc), irrational (cow piss drinking), unpatriotic, religious zealots could quite easily apply to the Hindu fundamentalists that ruled India in the last decade and are present in other areas of the world, where fraud is their most useful contribution to any society!!

cos indians in england are indians.
the way muslims in india are actually pakistanis/arabs. http://www.deccanherald.com/deccanherald/jul142005/national2138432005713.asp

the gujrat "massacre" of 1000 odd rag heads was an act of retribution. it sould teah the barbarian muslims not to ever again try and incenerate hindu pilgrims in train coaches. muslims need a dose from time to time.

indians are one of the pillars of silicon valley and most research institutes of usa. fraud is what a.q. khan did when he stole papers and instruments from germany and holland then sold it to other fellow islamic jihadis in his now famous nuclear walmart. fraud also is not exactly the way lord meghnad desai, kumar bhattacharya and now laxmi mittal is a part (last person about to be) of the house of lords in england. fraud is the way pakistanis bomb london tyubes, and muslims from new orleans (http://www.emporis.com/en/bu/sk/wt/up/cb/) car bomb wtc (almost a decade before the doyen of all muslims, osama himself brought wtc down).

so,

stone
window
own (entire house) glass.

or

pot
kettle
black.

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a better link to the wtc car bomber -

http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/crime/terrorists/ramzi-yousef/

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brahmin wrote:

cos indians in england are indians.
the way muslims in india are actually pakistanis/arabs.

Is Amjad "sarod" ali khan anything other than Indian?

brahmin wrote:

the gujrat "massacre" of 1000 odd rag heads was an act of retribution. it sould teah the barbarian muslims not to ever again try and incenerate hindu pilgrims in train coaches. muslims need a dose from time to time.

saddens my heart to hear this from a fellow hindu (i presume)

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chinmayee_s wrote:

brahmin wrote:

cos indians in england are indians.
the way muslims in india are actually pakistanis/arabs.

Is Amjad "sarod" ali khan anything other than Indian?

amjad ali khan is indian alright.

not of indian stock though. that would be ali akbar khan.

brahmin wrote:

the gujrat "massacre" of 1000 odd rag heads was an act of retribution. it sould teah the barbarian muslims not to ever again try and incenerate hindu pilgrims in train coaches. muslims need a dose from time to time.

saddens my heart to hear this from a fellow hindu (i presume)[/quote]

but doesnt sadden your heart when innocent pilgrims are burnt and crackers are burst in j.p.nagar and shivaji nagar and richmond road in bangalore when pakistan wins a cricket match against india ???

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brahmin wrote:

amjad ali khan is indian alright.

not of indian stock though. that would be ali akbar khan.

ali akbar khan (www.ammp.com) and amjad ali khan www.sarod.com/amjad/default.htm) are different... did you also mean to say that? Anyway, I meant - Amjad ali khan, ali akbar khan, bismillah khan, parveen sultana (and so many others) are muslims that India's proud of...

brahmin wrote:

but doesnt sadden your heart when innocent pilgrims are burnt and crackers are burst in j.p.nagar and shivaji nagar and richmond road in bangalore when pakistan wins a cricket match against india ???

Of course, it saddens my heart to hear of innocent pilgrims burnt (well whether it's pilgrims, hindus, muslims, atheists..does it make a difference)...As for crackers (i think they are waste of time anyway)... Zaheer khan plays for India...thats all matters. I know there might be muslims in India who symathize with Pakistan. It's a complex issue and a complex relationship between Hindus and Muslims in India. I dont know the solutions to our communal problems.

But I do know for sure that giving muslims "doses" from time to time is an abominable thought. the gujarat massacre is shameful. so is the godhra burning. one is not better than the other Sad

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chinmayee_s wrote:

brahmin wrote:

amjad ali khan is indian alright.

not of indian stock though. that would be ali akbar khan.

ali akbar khan (www.ammp.com) and amjad ali khan www.sarod.com/amjad/default.htm) are different... did you also mean to say that? Anyway, I meant - Amjad ali khan, ali akbar khan, bismillah khan, parveen sultana (and so many others) are muslims that India's proud of...

yes i know they are different people. what made you think i didnt?

what i mean is naming la creme' de la creme' of the muslims in india dont dont help to do any of the two things
1) negate the whole sale plunder and rape and loot they carried out india for over 600 years in the name of religion. being from karnataka, have you heard of the bahamani empire that made it a point to slay 10,000 hindus every year just for kicks - as attested, amongst others, by their own cronicles.

2) prove that they are not a burden to society. not just in indi but everywhere. yesterday they showed on tv how they are the least earning and least educated community in uk. even so in usa. in india they are about 15 % of the population, but are 1% of our graduates, 60% of the under world and basically a burden to the nation. in stark contrast to the parsis for example who are <1% of india but are basically the "jews of india" if you kno what i mean - there's no walk of life where they have no contributed more than their fair share.

Quote:

Of course, it saddens my heart to hear of innocent pilgrims burnt (well whether it's pilgrims, hindus, muslims, atheists..does it make a difference)...As for crackers (i think they are waste of time anyway)... Zaheer khan plays for India...thats all matters. I know there might be muslims in India who symathize with Pakistan. It's a complex issue and a complex relationship between Hindus and Muslims in India. I dont know the solutions to our communal problems.

But I do know for sure that giving muslims "doses" from time to time is an abominable thought. the gujarat massacre is shameful. so is the godhra burning. one is not better than the other

there "might be" muslims in india who support pakistan eh??
the way there "might be" muslims in england who hate blair and arnt really sad about 7/7 ...??

they get doses only when they ask for it. there are no riots happening as i write this post - cos they have not burnt any pilgrims of recently.

had they not incinerated the pilgrims returning in the trian, no riot would have happened. i never said one is better than the other and that two wrongs do make a right.

i said sometimes it becmes difficult to keep emotions bottled up.
if some of your friends and relatives had been burnt in the train then you'd have rioted too.

the reason why they do it is that they got nothing to lose.

they have little else to do in their lives but to launch jihad, "liberate" kashmir and palestine, install the "chaliphate" and realise other failed mediaval islamic plans (india btw is "unfinished business" for them) - so they drag other people who want to go about their lives peacefully into a frontal all out fight. hindus get caught between 2 stools during godhra like incinerations - either we do nothing and let them off the hook - or we give back as good as we got - only to spoil our unblemished record for good.

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brahmin wrote:

yes i know they are different people. what made you think i didnt?

what i mean is naming la creme' de la creme' of the muslims in india

I was only trying to point out what a strong (positive) influence they haev had on our culture. Have you ever heard how lovingly parveen sultana sings Krishna songs...

brahmin wrote:

dont dont help to do any of the two things
1) negate the whole sale plunder and rape and loot they carried out india for over 600 years in the name of religion. being from karnataka, have you heard of the bahamani empire that made it a point to slay 10,000 hindus every year just for kicks - as attested, amongst others, by their own cronicles.

Of course I've heard of the bahmani kingdom. Should we all start taking revenge on each other for all historical crimes? Everybody wil burn down everyone else...and no one wil be left.

brahmin wrote:

2) prove that they are not a burden to society.

No community is a "burden" to society. 60% of the underworld?? When did they take a census of people in the underworld Smile

...Yes, the world is certainly having a problem with Jihadis...the world is also having a problem with other kinds of terrorists...

brahmin wrote:

if some of your friends and relatives had been burnt in the train then you'd have rioted too.

God forbid. I would have been shattered, angry and I would have moved heaven and earth to bring the guilty to book. (Yes, in spite of our corrrupt system). I would have tried to get help from journo friends...i would have done a 1000 things....but NO i would not have rioted or hurt anybody. I do not think any sane person should.

When i was a kid, my neighbor (a wonderful person, never caused anybody harm) built a restaurant (out of his hard earned money) near our house. It was doing well when they burnt it down during the cauvery riots becuase he was Tamil. Who should he gave gone rioting against? Should he stop talking to us since we were from Karnataka?? Or according to you..he should have burnt us down..what say??

my best friend was run down by a lorry (hit and run) when i was 19. all witnesses said that the driver was drunk and driving madly. what should i do? go rioting against all lorry drivers? (after all, statistics show that lorries cause the highest highway accidents where I live in India..). Your kind of hatred is senseless.

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I was only trying to point out what a strong (positive) influence they haev had on our culture. Have you ever heard how lovingly parveen sultana sings Krishna songs...

---->> and that for your information is the influence of indian society on islamic culture and not the other way round. they did not invent bhajans - they learnt it from us, so its our influence on them.

besides the little positive influence they may have had, if any, dont hold a candle to the brutal carnage and sacking of the subcontinent.

Of course I've heard of the bahmani kingdom. Should we all start taking revenge on each other for all historical crimes? Everybody wil burn down everyone else...and no one wil be left.

----->> did i say that? read my profile page. i said we sould not forget so ealily and should not delude ourselves into believing that they are a progressive and (let alone) peaceful people just cos amjad ali khan was muslim. dawood ibrahim is too btw.

No community is a "burden" to society. 60% of the underworld?? When did they take a census of people in the underworld Smile...Yes, the world is certainly having a problem with Jihadis...the world is also having a problem with other kinds of terrorists...

--->> every unproductive community is a burden to society. 60% is very conservative. more like 80%. one only has to read the papers and see the news. poachers, smuggers, extortionists, you name it - they have it. and a LOT more than their fair share of it. but go to IIT - there are a dozen muslims if at all. pinko talk doesnt help.

all parts of the world that has muslims is having a problem. they are on one if not both sides of almost every international problem. we would not be posting now had they been able to blow up the ayodhya temple when they tried it 2 months back - there would have been civil war in india - precisely what the want.

God forbid. I would have been shattered, angry and I would have moved heaven and earth to bring the guilty to book. (Yes, in spite of our corrrupt system). I would have tried to get help from journo friends...i would have done a 1000 things....but NO i would not have rioted or hurt anybody. I do not think any sane person should.

---->>> you have your degrees behind you. the ones who rioted are mostly proletariat people who's near ones were killed. i think a lot of sane people would though, both qualified and prole. cos if they were let off the hook, we would have a godhra burning every week.

When i was a kid, my neighbor (a wonderful person, never caused anybody harm) built a restaurant (out of his hard earned money) near our house. It was doing well when they burnt it down during the cauvery riots becuase he was Tamil. Who should he gave gone rioting against? Should he stop talking to us since we were from Karnataka?? Or according to you..he should have burnt us down..what say??

------->> i have no idea about why the kannads and the kongatis fight against each other. this is not germane to this thread topic.

my best friend was run down by a lorry (hit and run) when i was 19. all witnesses said that the driver was drunk and driving madly. what should i do? go rioting against all lorry drivers? (after all, statistics show that lorries cause the highest highway accidents where I live in India..). Your kind of hatred is senseless.

----->> classic pinko talk!!
whether the driver was drunk or not, he did not run over the victim deliberately - it was an accident. and he certainly didnt do it cos the victim was of a certain community.

your kind of analogy is stupid.

one is an accident and the other is a intentional attempt to kill.

notice that when a plane crashed into a building in holland (some 12 years ago), and when wtc happened - the reactions of NATO were different.
cos one was an accident and the other was intentional. ofcourse from the pinko point of view - they both were same and usa should have sat quitely as building after american building got 9/11-ed.

i have no hatred for anyone. as long as they are nice. which is (ie. "nice" is) not quite the way muslims behave in india, or anywhere else in the world, let alone the way pakistan behaves towards india.

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brahmin wrote:

every unproductive community is a burden to society.

Shocking and saddening. Sounds dangerously like Hitler.

I'm not a champion of the Muslims or of any community. No one agrees with Jihadis or the burkha....

Hitler blamed the Jews for all of Germany's problems.....deja vu??

Btw, this "unproductive" community has given India several cultural riches. The sarod (afghan instrument), ghazals...they have influenced our cuisine, music, dance (khathak). When I said Parveen Sultana sings krishna songs..I was speaking about her love for Lord Krishna. About how open-mindedly she has embraced a Hindu God. So many artists have done likewise. Jasraj sings songs for Allah. So many of our popular gharanas come from muslim families.

People like you believe that Muslims deserve what they got in Hindu riots. Muslims dont deserve it. Hindus dont deserve it. You wouldn't understand.

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brahmin wrote:

every unproductive community is a burden to society.

Shocking and saddening. Sounds dangerously like Hitler.

I'm not a champion of the Muslims or of any community. No one agrees with Jihadis or the burkha....

Hitler blamed the Jews for all of Germany's problems.....deja vu??

---->>
you do take pinko-ism to new heights.

when did i blame muslims for india's problems? if you are virgin to the english language or statistics, then you can let me know. you made a sweeping comment linking me to hitler.... care to back your statement up?

is it that you know not what "deja vu" means or is it that you still need to get your facts right as regards hitler and the jews of germany (more productive than the jews of anywhere alse).

i blamed muslims for THEIR problems - their astronimically high rate of illeteracy, abysbally low income and presence in white collar society, their overwhelming presence in all things underhand (telgi case remember) and underworld. ok?
and when i50 million people contribute them what 5 million should, (except in the underworld where they contribute what 500 million should) - then its not wrong to describe them as a burden to the nation.

and if unproductive people are not a burden to society, then who is? the productive ones? the parsis are a burden to india ??

btw,i don't disagree with the burkha - as long as they dont insist non muslims also wear it.

Btw, this "unproductive" community has given India several cultural riches. The sarod (afghan instrument), ghazals...they have influenced our cuisine, music, dance (khathak). When I said Parveen Sultana sings krishna songs..I was speaking about her love for Lord Krishna. About how open-mindedly she has embraced a Hindu God. So many artists have done likewise. Jasraj sings songs for Allah. So many of our popular gharanas come from muslim families.

----->> i know where the sarod came from. i also know that khandahar of today is actually gandhar of mahabharatta - so i have my doubts that sarod is entirely afghan.

thing is the music that is played on the sarod is indian - the raag, sur, tal concepts did not come from them.

one south indian dude plays raags on the violin too - that wouldnt mean indian classical came from the west, just like if someone played fur elise on the sitar instead of the violin, it would not be a new addition to "western music", but just a new instrument on which its played.

old wine in a new bottle. which is a sort of concept pinkos like to use often.

gharanas came from them, cos they ruined our country and their kings had little else to do in life barring screw women in harems and listen to music. they looted our country, took control of all our wealth and with that if they patronised indian classical music, then they haven't done us a great favour. its not unlike the way the romance countries (if you knwo what those are) preserve the relics of central america's civilizations after ruining them.
ghazals are songs written in a language called urdu - a mix of hindi which is one of the daughter language of sanskrit and in persian, which is the sister language of sanskrit, though it was arabificated no end and transliterated into arabic script (when zoarastrian persia fell to arabs and turks and other assorted barbarians) by the time urdu was formed.

in case you didnt knwo, productivity of a people is defined as the contribution they make to the gdp in proportion of their numbers. naming a few musicians wont fly. give me their percentage in india's white collar society, amongst our industrialists, doctors, scientists, media men etc etc.

and then look at how much the parsis contribute for their small numbers.

People like you believe that Muslims deserve what they got in Hindu riots. Muslims dont deserve it. Hindus dont deserve it. You wouldn't understand.

---->> yes i do understand. i also believe that the afghans deserve what they got for 9/11.
you deny history and run away from reality and facts just so you can retain a sort of a utopian moral high ground, deep inside pinko territory.

someone burns pilgrims, not even ordinary passengers but pilgrims returning from a pilgrimage - and then the nation has to sit and digest that !!!

you are the sort of pinko that'd feel sorry that timothy mcveigh and the abortion clinic bomber had to die. lol ... they deserve to.

as you sow, so you reap.

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There was one Indian and a Pakistani who lived as neighbours in New York. The Indian owned a hen and early in the morning would go around his garden to pick up the egg. One day, the hen laid the egg in his neighbour's - the Pakistani's - garden.

While the Pakistani said the egg belonged to him because it was on his property, the Indian maintained that it was his property because the hen belonged to him.

The argument continued, before the partially intelligent Indian came up with a solution. He said, "In such circumstances, we have a tried and tested method to solve disputes."

"What is that?" The Pakistani asked.

"I will kick you in your balls, and then we take down the time you take to get up. After you are up, you kick me on my balls and we note down the time taken for me to get up."

"Ok, and then... " the Pakistani asks.

"And then....the guy who takes less time to get up, gets to keep the egg," asserts the Indian.

"Not a bad idea.", said the Pakistani.

Once the Paki agreed for the contest the Indian went home, wore his papa's army boots, dug deep into his reserves and kicked the Pakistani in the balls. In micro seconds he was rolling on the floor, crying in pain. Tears ran down his cheeks.

It took the Pakistani two hours to get back to normal. And when he went to the Indian and said, hey...now it is my turn to kick you in your balls...the Indian promptly said: "That is ok, I lose. You can keep the egg."

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brahmin wrote:

i blamed muslims for THEIR problems - their astronimically high rate of illeteracy, abysbally low income and presence in white collar society, their overwhelming presence in all things underhand (telgi case remember) and underworld. ok?

No, you arent just blaming them for their problems. You are saying that they are problematic so they deserve to be shunned, rioted against and whatever else you think they "deserve".

brahmin wrote:

and when i50 million people contribute them what 5 million should, (except in the underworld where they contribute what 500 million should) - then its not wrong to describe them as a burden to the nation.

brahmin wrote:

and if unproductive people are not a burden to society, then who is? the productive ones? the parsis are a burden to india ??

Goodness, of course not. You are the one who believes a particular community is a burden to soceity. Why parsis - i dont believe that musilms, sikhs, hindus, the slum-dwellers in Mumbai, the beggars on the streets - i consider no one a burden to society. Life's unfair. And some are more unfortunate than others.

brahmin wrote:

thing is the music that is played on the sarod is indian - the raag, sur, tal concepts did not come from them.

Of course, Amjad ali khan plays Hindustani music - not Afghan or Persian music. BUT, i'm saying that OUR music has been positively influenced by the muslims, which is not to say it is extra ordinary. All i'm trying to say is the muslims (along with their culture and their whatever other minuses and pluses) are an integral part of our country.

brahmin wrote:

one south indian dude plays raags on the violin too - that wouldnt mean indian classical came from the west, just like if someone played fur elise on the sitar instead of the violin, it would not be a new addition to "western music", but just a new instrument on which its played.

Obviously. (Btw, it isnt "One south indian dude" - Lalgudi Jayaraman, Kunakudi Vaidyanathan etc etc) . So many south indian musicians have been playing carnatic classical music on the violin, which, as you said, is a western instrument. No, that doesnt make those ragas western. It just goes to show that western music and its intruments have had an influence on our music. Simple. (There are many examples of Indian music influencing other types of music). I made this point - that muslims have made major contributions to our culture - becuase you were trying to portray muslims as being "useless".

brahmin wrote:

gharanas came from them, cos they ruined our country and their kings had little else to do in life barring screw women in harems and listen to music. they looted our country, took control of all our wealth and with that if they patronised indian classical music, then they haven't done us a great favour. its not unlike the way the romance countries (if you knwo what those are) preserve the relics of central america's civilizations after ruining them.

LOL..as though our Hindu kings didnt have harems... Smile

...anyways...

brahmin wrote:

and then look at how much the parsis contribute for their small numbers.

Sure, I know they do. They have a different set of problems. Their population is diminishing - due to inbreeding and other issues. CElebrate a talented and prodcutive community but why berate others who arent as good as they are?

brahmin wrote:

If you deny history and run away from reality and facts just so you can retain a sort of a utopian moral high ground, deep inside pinko territory.

I'm not denying history. All i'm saying it's useless trying to undo or avenge historical wrongdoings.

brahmin wrote:

someone burns pilgrims, not even ordinary passengers but pilgrims returning from a pilgrimage - and then the nation has to sit and digest that !!!

For me, it doesnt make an difference that they were pilgrims and not anyone else. It was horrendous anyway. The nation should NOT sit and digest what happened. Thats the problem - either we do nothing....or we riot and take some extreme measures. ANYthing is ok...but not riots. No killing.
I dont condone "appeasement" of minority communities like our politicians keep doing year after year (which I think a lot of Hindus rightly grudge). I commend bold, strong actions. But actions - not violence or riots.

EXample of peaceful but bold action: I hail from a small city near banglore. This city is now being "developed". They are widening roads...etc. There are at least 5 mosques that the new corporator razed down to widen roads. There are protests from the muslim community. He has quelled them firmly but WITHOUT provoking them. There was a muslim mob the other day outside his office - he had the police swiftly and efficently scare them away. This might seem like a small thing to people who dont know how diffcult it is to raze down mosques (you know they were almost in the middle of the road and major traffic hazards). All i'm saying it requires tact and deft planning. It might not always be so easy but it can be done.

There are some problems that look as though they have no solutions. Even in those cases, i dont think violence is the answer.

As for "as you sow, so you reap", NO, i dont think think the muslims deserved to be rioted against (wherever they are) because muslim terrorists are ataacking other people. All i'm saying is NO to riots, civil war and strife. There are some ppl who think the US "deserved" what they got - they say they deserved it becuase a fruit of their mistakes and wrongdoings in dealing with the middle east countries. I strongly disagree with that too.

brahmin wrote:

in case you didnt knwo, productivity of a people is defined as the contribution they make to the gdp in proportion of their numbers. naming a few musicians wont fly. give me their percentage in india's white collar society, amongst our industrialists, doctors, scientists, media men etc etc.

I do know renowned industrialists, media men ( M J Akbar), sceintists (The prez himself). But no, I dont have the statistics. So lets assume that, they are, as you say, the nost unproductive among us. So what do you suggest we do? Well, i think we need to think of solutions here. All I'm saying is, (repeating myself for thousandth time) violence is not the answer. nor is hatred. I disgree with you because you justify violence.

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chinmayee_s wrote:

brahmin wrote:

i blamed muslims for THEIR problems - their astronimically high rate of illeteracy, abysbally low income and presence in white collar society, their overwhelming presence in all things underhand (telgi case remember) and underworld. ok?

No, you arent just blaming them for their problems. You are saying that they are problematic so they deserve to be shunned, rioted against and whatever else you think they "deserve"

show me where i said as much ??

i did say that they are problematic - and thats not in india, but all over the known universe.

and if they burn pilgrims, yes they deserve to be put in their place, just as much as afghans deserve to be put in their place everytime they do a wtc.

can you tell me one walk of life where they contribute in proportion to their numbers, apart from the indian underworld.??

brahmin wrote:

and when i50 million people contribute them what 5 million should, (except in the underworld where they contribute what 500 million should) - then its not wrong to describe them as a burden to the nation.

chinmayee_s wrote:

Goodness, of course not. You are the one who believes a particualr community is a burden to soceity. Why parsis - i dont believe that musilms, sikhs, the slum-dwellers in Mumbai, beggars on the streets - i consider no one is a burden to society. Life's unfair. And they are among the unfortunate ones.

i believe that those who dont do as much as they should are a burden to society. the same way as workers who do as much work in a week as they should do in a day are burdens to their companies. the 150 million muslims contribute to indian society, what less than a fifth of that number should.

a particular community is never a burden to society per se' - its only whan they are a stagnant people with a mediaval mindset, that they are considered unproductive. incidentally, muslims have this tag of bein 'burdens" whereever they go - in uk, in usa everywhere, they are the least educated, the least earning, amongst the most criminal and/or terrorist community.

life's unfair to everyone.

the belief that live's unfair to only those people who choose not to do anything worthwhile with their lives - is as pinko as they come.

parsis are the jewels of india and have contributed more than their fair share in everything. most unlike the muslims.

chinmayee_s wrote:

Of course, Amjad ali khan plays Hindutani music -not afghan or Persian music. BUT, i'm saying that OUR music has been positively influenced by the muslims, which is not to say it is extra ordinary. All i'm trying to say is the muslims (along with their culture and their whatever other minuses and pluses) are an integral part of our country.

nope. thats a classic example of twisting facts on their heads.

L subramanium plays the violin does not mean indians have influenced western classical music - but the opposite. western classical music has influenced certain indian artists to take it up.

the same way indian classical music has influenced some of the blood thirsty turkic barbarians to take it up. it remains to be seen if mongols and nazis ever take to hindustani classical.

i never said they are not an integral part of our country.

the way both your bad and good habits are still very much yours, the expat communities in india which outperform themselves (like the parsis) and the good for nothing expat communities (like the muslims) are both an integral part of our country.

chinmayee_s wrote:

Obviously. (Btw, it isnt "One south indian dude". So many south indian muscians have been playing carnatic classical music on the violin, which, as you said, is a western instrument. No, that doesnt make those ragas western. It just goes to show that western music and its intruments have had an influence on our music. Simple. (There are many examples of Indian music influencing other types of music). I made this point - that muslims have made major contricutions to our culture - becuase you were trying to portray muslims as being "useless".

if someone plays carnatic music in a western instrument, then its the same as someone playing fur elise on a sitar. not an addition to carnatic music or western music - but old wine in a new bottle.

the addition in this case in not the wine but the bottle.

producing a dozen maestros from abongst 150 million does not make the rest of them any better. i maintain - that they contribute about 1/20th of what they should to our white collar society. you are talking as though every one of them is a amjad ali khan. you are also talking as though you are impervious to statistics.

chinmayee_s wrote:

LOL..as though our kings didnt have harems......anyways,

yes they did. whats your point???

chinmayee_s wrote:

Sure, I know they do. They have a different set of problems. Their population is diminishing - due to inbreeding and other issues. CElebrate a talented and prodcutive community but why brate others who arent as good as they are?

i think you answered your question. why brate? cos they are as you for the first time admitted, though very euphemistically - "arent as good as they are".

let alone being as good as the parsis, the muslims arnt as god as they should be statistically. i mean their output in society is way below whats par for the course for a community of 150 million strong.

chinmayee_s wrote:

I'm not denying history. All i'm saying it's useless trying to undo or avenge historical wrongdoings.

i never spoke of avenging, even less trying to undo.

i spoke of not forgetting and not denying history.

and as for the muslims the least they can do is to try and stop being a sheer burden to india after the unspeakable carnage and plunder they caused in the name of their religion on us "kafirs"

chinmayee_S wrote:

For me, it doesnt make an difference that they were pilgrims and not anyone else. It was horrendous anyway. The nation should NOT sit and digest what happened. Anyone who feeels stringly about it...do ANYthing...but not riots. No killing.

yes but the muslims talk in only one language - that of the gun. and incidentally thats the only language they ever understand, anywhere in the world.

there wont be another 9/11 cos of the dose afghans got.
there wont be another godhra train incineration cos of the dose the rioters gave them. had they been allowed to get away with it, we'd get a godhra a day.

chinmayee_s wrote:

As for "as you sow, so you reap", NO, i dont think think the muslims deserved to be rioted against (wherever they are) because muslim terrorists are ataacking other people.

you are a pinko.

you admit "muslims terrorists are attacking people" and yet maintain that they should not get any stick for it.

chinmayee_S wrote:

I do know renowned industrialists, media men ( M J Akbar), sceintists (The prez himself). But no, I dont have the statistics. So lets assume that, they are, as you say, the nost unproductive among us. So what do you suggest we do? Well, i think we need to think of solutions here. All I'm saying is, violence is not the answer. nor is hatred.

i suggest that they start sending their childern to schol instead of madrassas. i suggest they stop expecting the government to nbail them out of their every problem, like they are used to from the days of the patronising islamic barbarian rulers in india. i suggest they teach their children about the truth about islam - that it is indeed a religion soaked in the blood of billions. i suggest they stop lookign at india as an "unfinished business" which is their duty to bring to the fold (ie. convert india from a dar-ul-harb to a dar-ul- camel-jockey) i suggest they stop bothering about what the hell is happenning in iraq, palestine and french polynesia - cos those dont belong to their adopted country. they cant live in india and have their ideological motherland in the gulf and nor be umbillically attached to the many jehadi movements all over the world. the parsis dont bother about iran. the christians in india dont bother about george bush's wars.

btw, mj akbar is as hyppocritical a pinko as india ever produced.
and the president is not a scientist. he is an aero engineer who's has among other things engineered this myth that he is a scientist.

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brahmin wrote:

there wont be another 9/11 cos of the dose afghans got.
there wont be another godhra train incineration cos of the dose the rioters gave them. had they been allowed to get away with it, we'd get a godhra a day.

chinmayee_s wrote:

As for "as you sow, so you reap", NO, i dont think think the muslims deserved to be rioted against (wherever they are) because muslim terrorists are attacking other people.

brahmin wrote:

you are a pinko.

So be it, whatever pinko means. I still believe that violence or "doses to muslims" (or anyone else) NEVER has a justification. It is always unforgivable.

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chinmayee_s wrote:

All I'm saying is, (repeating myself for thousandth time) violence is not the answer. nor is hatred. I disgree with you because you justify violence.

i am with you when you say that violence is not the answer.

unfortunately the vast majority of the muslims are not - they believe violence is THE answer, in kashmir, in iraq, in israel, in godhra, in the whole of india so that the dar-ul-cameljockey is resroted in india. their own websites and madrassas and mosques confirm as much (eg - in bangalore, try to take a walk from south end circle towards majestic. you will see the office of Sonata software on your right. and on the left side wall you will see messages of peace written in black paint "muslims of the world unite" and "death to israel" and "rebuild mosque" etc)

i dont hate them or anyone unless they do anything that deserves my hate. surely its no crime to hate the people who contribute zilch to our present society except in the black collar (underworld) sector, who's forefathers ravaged, looted, slautered and plundered this most productive of world civilizations, who to this day give a fig about india's problems but choose instead to bother about the muslims in iraq or somalia, and who to this day remain totally unashamed and unrepentant for the deeds of their ilk - as if its their right to kill non-muslims and destroy non muslims countries (which most muslims believe is indeed their right and whats more duty - to install a dar-ul-cameljockey).

i hate them for what they sow. not a penny less or more. the same way i admire parsis cos of what they do. both equally well deserved.

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brahmin wrote:

chinmayee_s wrote:
All I'm saying is, (repeating myself for thousandth time) violence is not the answer. nor is hatred. I disgree with you because you justify violence.

i am with you when you say that violence is not the answer.

unfortunately the vast majority of the muslims are not - they believe violence is THE answer, in kashmir, in iraq, in israel, in godhra, in the whole of india so that the dar-ul-cameljockey is resroted in india. their own websites and madrassas and mosques confirm as much (eg - in bangalore, try to take a walk from south end circle towards majestic. you will see the office of Sonata software on your right. and on the left side wall you will see messages of peace written in black paint "muslims of the world unite" and "death to israel" and "rebuild mosque" etc)

Well, if you believe that violence against muslims(or anyone else) is NOT the solution and that it is indefinsible and unforgivable, then we have nothing to disagree upon. Becuase these "messages of peace" are perturbing to me too.

But although you did not say it was the solution, you said that they (muslims) do deserve the violence/killing. And that unless we give them "doses" they will finish us. Thats where we disagree.

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chinmayee_s wrote:

So be it, whatever pinko means. I still believe that violence or "doses to muslims" (or anyone else) NEVER has a justification. It is always unforgivable.

doses that are uncalled for - like what the hindu pilgrims got from the muslims, are totally unforgivable yes.

but, doses that are given to prevent furure unforgivable doses and/or to teach a lesson to those who carry out an unprovoked act of cold violence violence like muslims did on the pilgrims in godhra - are cool, sweet,lovely and nice.

every other community understands a lot of languages. even the christians have stopped inquisition-ing, but the muslims still deal in doses and counter doses. suicide bombs and retaliatory hammerings, wtc's and cruise missiles. incenerations and vindictive riots. they ask for it - they get it. and thats sweet.

a pinko is a extreme liberal, often with marxist leanings and in the habit of spineless historical denial and negation. romilla thapar for example.

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