India or Pakistan

Torture is a daily routine for the vast majority of thousands of men and women who have been arrested in connection with the campaign for Kashmir's independence or for the state to join Pakistan.

The rape and sexual abuse of women has been widely reported in Jammu and Kashmir since the Indian security forces began counter-insurgency operations in 1990, although the stigma associated with rape and the fact that it often occurs in remote places means that this abuse is under-reported. Rape has been systematically used as a means of punishing women suspected of being sympathetic or related to alleged militants and as a weapon in the security forces' efforts to intimidate and humiliate the local population.

One of the most widely reported cases of gang-rape took place in Kunan Poshpora village in February 1991, when at least 23 women, ranging in age from 80 to 13, were reportedly raped at gunpoint by soldiers of the 4th Rajput Rifles (Indian Army) who had raided the village.

In October 1992 nine women and girls, one aged just 11 years old, were reportedly raped in the village of Shopian by an army unit searching for armed separatists. Despite detailed medical evidence supporting reports by civil liberties groups that the women had been raped, the authorities dismissed the allegations, informing Amnesty International that they "were trumped up at the instance of the militant outfit to malign the reputation of the security forces". They based their denials on two investigations, one carried out by the army and the other by a Superintendent of Police. Questioned by The Observer (London) shortly afterwards, the Director General of Police, Commander B.S. Bedi, also dismissed reports of rape with this characteristic response: "We carried out investigations of the allegations and they were found to be wrong. These women were wives of militants".

Methods of torture

Doctors treating torture victims in clinics and hospitals in Jammu and Kashmir are so accustomed to seeing patients admitted from interrogation and torture centres with acute renal failure that they are now calling it "Physical Torture Nephropathy". They attribute this to a combination of dehydration during torture and breakdown of soft tissue. As with any form of acute renal failure, it can lead to death unless treated urgently and if the patient survives they may suffer chronic kidney damage.

The "roller" is a common method of torture in Jammu and Kashmir. Victims are forced to lie on their backs and a round pole is rolled over their legs and bodies with great force, often by two of the torturers standing on each end of the pole and "walking" it over the victim.

The "roller" is just one of many methods of brutal torture which have been described by detainees who survived the experience.

Since we're onto Kashmir, here's a piece from Amnesty International on the Indian Army atrocities in that region, with lame attempts to cover up said atrocities. Some selected quotes

Quote:

Torture is a daily routine for the vast majority of thousands of men and women who have been arrested in connection with the campaign for Kashmir's independence or for the state to join Pakistan.

Quote:

The rape and sexual abuse of women has been widely reported in Jammu and Kashmir since the Indian security forces began counter-insurgency operations in 1990, although the stigma associated with rape and the fact that it often occurs in remote places means that this abuse is under-reported. Rape has been systematically used as a means of punishing women suspected of being sympathetic or related to alleged militants and as a weapon in the security forces' efforts to intimidate and humiliate the local population.

Quote:

One of the most widely reported cases of gang-rape took place in Kunan Poshpora village in February 1991, when at least 23 women, ranging in age from 80 to 13, were reportedly raped at gunpoint by soldiers of the 4th Rajput Rifles (Indian Army) who had raided the village.

Quote:

In October 1992 nine women and girls, one aged just 11 years old, were reportedly raped in the village of Shopian by an army unit searching for armed separatists. Despite detailed medical evidence supporting reports by civil liberties groups that the women had been raped, the authorities dismissed the allegations, informing Amnesty International that they "were trumped up at the instance of the militant outfit to malign the reputation of the security forces". They based their denials on two investigations, one carried out by the army and the other by a Superintendent of Police. Questioned by The Observer (London) shortly afterwards, the Director General of Police, Commander B.S. Bedi, also dismissed reports of rape with this characteristic response: "We carried out investigations of the allegations and they were found to be wrong. These women were wives of militants".

Quote:

Methods of torture

Doctors treating torture victims in clinics and hospitals in Jammu and Kashmir are so accustomed to seeing patients admitted from interrogation and torture centres with acute renal failure that they are now calling it "Physical Torture Nephropathy". They attribute this to a combination of dehydration during torture and breakdown of soft tissue. As with any form of acute renal failure, it can lead to death unless treated urgently and if the patient survives they may suffer chronic kidney damage.

Quote:

The "roller" is a common method of torture in Jammu and Kashmir. Victims are forced to lie on their backs and a round pole is rolled over their legs and bodies with great force, often by two of the torturers standing on each end of the pole and "walking" it over the victim.

The "roller" is just one of many methods of brutal torture which have been described by detainees who survived the experience.

http://www.amnestyusa.org/countries/india/document.do?id=581C118E2499C73E80256D24003793B0

There's a lot more to add. Perhaps later. Toodles

The Association for Land Reform and Development (ALRD), an NGO based in Dhaka states that "the implementation of Enemy Property Act \ Vested Property Act has accelerated the process of mass out-migration of Hindu population from mid 1960s onward. The estimated size of such out-migration (missing Hindu population) during 1964-1991 was 5.3 million, or 538 persons each day since 1964, with as high as 703 persons per day during 1964-1971.……………………………..... during the same period, the fertility rate among the Hindu population was 13 per cent less than the fertility rates among the Muslim population (estimate based on recent contraceptive use rates). Due to the lack of any reliable fertility estimates, the rate for the Muslims was estimated using an indirect method (Mauldin measure), based on contraceptive prevalence rates……………

http://www.hrdc.net/sahrdc/hrfeatures/HRF13.htm

Using a unique set of birth registration data from the Demographic Surveillance System of the International Center for Diarrheal Disease Research, Bangladesh, for the period 1974-77, ……The age-specific fertility rates by religion show that Muslims had higher fertility at all ages in 1974 and 1977 and at older ages in 1975 and 1976. Overall, however, fertility of Hindus is consistently lower than that of Muslims, but the relative differences are under 10%.………

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=3972858&query_hl=2

aha... so genocide-watch, amnesty international, wikepedia etc are all hindu websites???????

Genocide: 3 million (Bangladeshi estimate), 26,000 (Pakistan estimate)
In Bangladesh, and elsewhere (namely India), the Pakistani actions are referred to as genocide.

The reply form GB (letter no. 4. Date 22nd Feb 1990) was very disappointing. The GB refused to recognize the War of Independence as constituting a record of the highest rate of deaths (per day) since 1945. The GB had also mysteriously made no mention of my own little evidence. Therefore the doubt still persisted about the validity of the THREE MILLION. And since the casualties of the war did not amount to a record, the question remained as to how many really died during the War of Independence.

Sheikh Mujibur Rahman has used the number THREE MILLION on occasions in the first month of his victorious arrival from Pakistan In total, from 1972 to 1975 he used this controversial number on a dozen occasion. The THREE MILLION is mentioned in some patriotic songs and poems (which of course gives them a firm basis).
http://www.engr.uconn.edu/~faisal/Genocide.html

According to Professor Sarmila Bose of the George Washington University, "In all of the incidents involving the Pakistan Army in the case-studies, the armed forces were found not to have raped women. While this cannot be extrapolated beyond the specific incidents in this study, it is significant, as in many cases the allegation of rape was made along with allegations of killing in prior verbal discussions or in some cases even in written form in Bengali literature. However, when Bengali eye-witnesses, participants and survivors of the incidents were interviewed they testified to the violence and killings, but also testified that no rape had taken place." Prof Bose was addressing a conference on the 1971 conflict arranged by the State Department to mark the release of declassified documents from that period.

Prof Bose said there has been no systematic study of the 1971 conflict which, in turn, hinders "a true understanding of a cataclysmic restructuring in modern South Asian history."

Bengalis appear to be determined more by fewer opportunities rather than a principled stand, both sides are equal in terms of the nature of the crime. Equally, acts of humanity in the midst of a bitter conflict are found on all sides."

She said, "The civil war of 1971 was fought between those who believed they were fighting for a united Pakistan and those who believed their chance for justice and progress lay in an independent Bangladesh. Both were legitimate political positions. All parties in this conflict embraced violence as a means to the end, all committed acts of brutality outside accepted norms of warfare, and all had their share of humanity. These attributes make the 1971 conflict particularly suitable for efforts towards reconciliation, rather than recrimination."

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_30-6-2005_pg1_2

as for the amnesty i6nternational report - most of the "sources" are the muslims of kashmir themselves - who directly and indirectly support/harbour/nourish/protect the jehadi terrorist of pakistan. and come up with various concocted stories and self inflicted injuries to deface the security forces.

but still i would not deny that sometimes a non-terrorist or non-terrorist-sympathiser/helper kashmiri finds himself on the wrong end of the security men - but then during any insurgency anyhere, be it in israel or in today's iraq, a few mistakes are bound to happen amidst the chaos. "**** happens" as they say. take for instance the shooting of the brazilian by the scotland yard. but then what if they 6hadn't shot and the guy tu6rned out to be a jehadi islamist pakistani muslim suicide bomber

Rape has been systematically used as a means of punishing women suspected of being sympathetic or related to alleged militants and as a weapon in the security forces' efforts to intimidate and humiliate the local population.
http://www.amnestyusa.org/countries/india/document.do?id=130CC715AEA97B67802569A500714D22

Torture has been described in thousands of media reports, analyzed in medical journals, recounted in testimonies from former detainees, and in numerous reports of investigations conducted by local and other Indian civil liberties groups, and by international non-governmental organizations such as Human Rights Watch/Asia and Physicians for Human Rights, Denmark (PHR/D), as well as Amnesty International. Torture has also been documented by the United Nations Special Rapporteur on torture. Nevertheless, the Indian Government routinely denies allegations that its troops are responsible for systematic torture, and virtually no soldiers have been brought to justice for torturing detainees in their custody.

the pakistani army is not involved because they dont need to since the pakistanis are themselves involved, producing jehadis by the thousand. the ISI backs them to the hilt and trains them in terror camps in pakistan. jehadis = pakistan's army.

the indian army's involvement here, is the same and for the same reasons as the israeli army's involvement in countering the intifada carried out by the arabs/muslims (who for some reason seem to have the single point agenda of carrying out intifadas and killings and genocides and suicide bombins on all parts of the world they have gone to) - the indian army is there to get those pakistani jehadis. israel has to send its army to counter the hamas and such like because the jews arn't terrorist jehadis themselves and so cant take on terrorists without a trained fighting force. same here. and thats also the reason india and israel co-operates to such a high extent (india's defence and intelligence ties/co-operation with israel are second to only usa's ties with israel) - cos we face the same situations, the same merciless muslims who have the same agenda - of robbing the rightful owner countries of their land.

Accepting Hizbul Mujahideen as genuine and indigenous Kashmiris was a moral victory for the militants. Delhi also offered dialogue with all Kashmiri jehadi groups without conditionalities. Even Farooq Abdullah forgetting his demand for autonomy stated that Hizbul Mujahideen's were sons of the soil, and his government welcomed dialogue with them and other like minded militants. Farooq Abdullah said that the Indian government was ready for talks with seven other militant organizations, whose fighters he said were sons of the soil. He pleaded with them to ceasefire, and start negotiations. Mr Vajpayee responded positively to the Hizb offer of ceasefire and dialogue by saying that the only conditionality is "Insaniyat" i.e. humanism and civility and not the Indian constitution. Vajpayee invited all militant groups to talks. The recognition by India that all militant outfits except Lashkar-e-Tayyaba and Harkat-al-Mujahideen are indigenous Kashmiris is a moral victory for the Hizbul Mujahideen and Kashmiri youths fighting for freedom since 1989. India by accepting that the freedom fighters are native Kashmiris, has acknowledged its deception and propaganda that the freedom struggle was foreign sponsored.

http://www.defencejournal.com/2000/nov/hizb.htm

The indigenous Kashmiri groups like the Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF) and large portions of the Hizbul-Mujahideen (HM) would probably participate in the later stages of any settlement as evident from the unilateral ceasefire declared by the HM in July 2000.

Sections of the forces, particularly those who have operated for extended durations in Kashmir, will argue that the Kashmiris will never embrace the Indian cause, being inherently pro-Pakistani.

http://www.expressindia.com/kashmir/kashmirlive/an20010525.html

Al-Faran's killing of an innocent tourist confronted Kashmiris?-victims of Indian crackdowns and custodial killings?-with a role reversal: a group that claimed to be fighting for Kashmir's freedom beheaded a tourist in its custody. The outrage this murder triggered appears to be generating a new solidarity among Kashmiris, aptly demonstrated in the virtual shutdown of the Valley on Aug. 17 following a strike call by a coalition of political and militant groups condemning the murder and calling for the hostages' release.

http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/1295/9512028b.html

Q: What do the people of Kashmir want?

A: At one time, most of the residents would have voted to join Pakistan. Increasingly, Kashmiris are calling for independence. A majority clearly would vote to leave India if given the chance.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2002/01/09/kashmir-qna-usat.htm

At the insistence of the last British viceroy of India, Lord Mountbatten, Kashmir's accession to India was supposed to be temporary. After order was restored, a referendum was to be held in which Kashmiris chose between India and Pakistan. The United Nations passed several resolutions calling for a referendum. But India never allowed it to happen.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2002/01/09/kashmir-qna-usat.htm

The brutality of torture in Jammu and Kashmir defies belief. It has left people mutilated and disabled for life. The severity of torture meted out by the Indian security forces in Jammu and Kashmir is the main reason for the appalling number of deaths in custody.

http://www.amnestyusa.org/countries/india/document.do?id=130CC715AEA97B67802569A500714D22

as for the indians army's "crimes" in kashmir, there arnt any. the few wrongs that do take place are unintentional/unforced errors

finally the HAF is a group, that has the support and the backing of most of the senators in usa. there's no source that failks to call the killing of 3+ million a genocide, barring holocaust (in bangladesh) deniers like you.

Not true. The background is that Kashmir is divided into two parts. One part is Pakistani-administered, the other is Indian administered. The Pakistani Army in the Pakistani-administered part of Kashmir does not have any problem with the locals. The Indian Army in the Indian-administered Kashmir is facing an insurgency comprising chiefly of the local Kashmiri population:

Even major Indian newspapers admit the fact that the major militant groups in Indian-administered Kashmir are indigenous Kashmiris themselves!! See here for example, it says that Hizbul-Mujahideen (the largest insurgent outfit in Kashmir is largely indigenous!!:

Census figures do not suggest that "3 million+" were killed as you put it. If all you can quote are from the Daily Star (Dhaka) or the Independent (Chittagong) or from "The Hindu" or "Banglapedia" for your references, you do not have a leg to stand on. The figure of 3 million was repeated by the Bengali leader in 1971 (who was killed by his own people subsequently), and no independent, creditable institution or person will touch it. Think about it.

mork wrote:

Not true. The background is that Kashmir is divided into two parts. One part is Pakistani-administered, the other is Indian administered. The Pakistani Army in the Pakistani-administered part of Kashmir does not have any problem with the locals. The Indian Army in the Indian-administered Kashmir is facing an insurgency comprising chiefly of the local Kashmiri population:

The background is that kashnir was always occupied by hindus, nad has historically been a part of india. and that pakistan has eaten away one half of it, called POk - pakistan occupied kashmir, and has been trying ever since to make a grab at the other half, which rightfully belongs to india.

At the insistence of the last British viceroy of India, Lord Mountbatten, Kashmir's accession to India was supposed to be temporary. After order was restored, a referendum was to be held in which Kashmiris chose between India and Pakistan. The United Nations passed several resolutions calling for a referendum. But India never allowed it to happen.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2002/01/09/kashmir-qna-usat.htm

the pakistani army has the locals of POK under the hammer, so the locals can't protest against them. where as in indian kashmir, the locals are free to launch any ammount of suicide attacks they want - and so they do. and the indian army facing the insurgency from the local kashmiri population is true -= the local kashmiri population is predominately muslim - the jihadis having butchered and flushed away the kashmiri pandits (so that kashmir becomes a muslim majority place, like china allocates houses to chinese people in tivet, so that son tibet becomes totally chinese dominated), an they want to break away, being as they (kashmiri muslims) are jehadi muslims themselves. (as most muslims anywhere in the world are). india aint gonna allow that, else in all parts of india where the muslims have stayed back - instead of migrating to arabia or pakistan - they'll make similar separatist demands and soon we will have islands of pakistan in india (which is what muslims in india and also in the west want. we are likely to see a mini soudi arabia in holland and france son, nd a londonistan in london to). if the kashmiri muslims want to go to pakistan, hell if the3 indian muslims want to go to pakistan or soudi arabia, they are free to do so - what they cant however do is take our land with them, much is the same way the jews of europe and usa cant declare mini-israels all over the place.

mork wrote:

Even major Indian newspapers admit the fact that the major militant groups in Indian-administered Kashmir are indigenous Kashmiris themselves!! See here for example, it says that Hizbul-Mujahideen (the largest insurgent outfit in Kashmir is largely indigenous!!:

precisely.

which shows just how muslims put religion above the nation they belong to. much in the same way muslims in the west are against usa for bombing afghanistan. nearly all the muslims in india actually have one foot in arabia and another in pakistan. and hence they cheer and celebrate on the streets when pakistan wins a cricket match against india, and hence we have "death to usa and israel" type posters and protest marches right here in india.
the problem with muslims is that they dont understand nation or nationality - they understand only religion - their own. even after the london bombings, the muslims in london described the iraqis as their "brothers" though ethnically they arnt in any way related to iraqis and are probably white and thus european. similarly muslims in india cry river upon river for "palestanian victims" (never for jews who die under suicide bombers). they are just one narrowminded, irrational, anti establishment, undemocratic, unpatriotic, religious zealot of a people. no matter which part of the world they end up in. every ****-up in the world has muslims on one if not both sides of it.


needless to say the separist muslims in india have the full tactical backing of the ISI and the financial backing of the bin ladens of the world.

even the Ram tempe bombing attempt that took place a month or so back, was done by 4 pakistani muslims, trained in the jehad-camps of pakistan, and with the help of local indian muslims. the same way the LeT and JeM gets a hell lot of support from the local muslims population of pakistan.

your references themselves admit the fact that the local muslim population backs the millitants to the hilt and themselves produce more than their fair share of blodthirsty cut throats (which is but a step away from being muslim anyway)

as for the amnesty int, it is the same organization that condemns Israel trying to protect its land and people from the arab terrorists. man doesnt amnesty have better work to do than to side with terrorists ?? the problem is that when terrorists murder by the million, they get away with it cos they are self declared terrorists/muslims - so no one expects anything better from them in any case. but when an army goofs up by even a whisker while trying to tackle the separatist insusgency, all hell breaks loose and pinko organisations start condemning it. truely beautiful, this terrorist-pinko nexus.