Blanket statement about women may make a great conversation

Wish I could answer, Tenoch, but I've never had children.

I do recall (rather vividly) co-workers who worked up until the day their labor started, and returned to work with a 6-week-old baby in day care.

Certainly part of the reason I chose not to have children was watching the misery & exhaustion of these women (though there were lots of other reasons for me, too).

I was pointing things like this out to Nimh on another thread. Talking about what the work force is REALLY like here in america.
Maternity leave , sick leave, vacation time etc.
All of that is frowned on. Sometimes to the point that you will loose your job for attendance reasons if you take time that is GIVEN to you .
America's idea of a productive worker is strange... Work hard, Work fast, work 24-7. Those who take time off from thier jobs are seen as unstable. Often times, at the end of the year, most companies ( NOT ALL ) offer to pay you back for the time you have NOT taken off. Accumulated sick/vacation leave is placed on your next check generously. Praises are given to people who " dont miss a day of work' and this is seen as dedication. To not call in sick, to not take vacation shows dedication? To who? I dont want someone who eats breathes and shits thier job. I want someone who has balance in thier lives, because with that balance you create MORE balance. You stay focused and are MUCH more productive.
The stress of not missing work days here in this counrty is probally the only thing that is evenly distributed. Women and men BOTH know that the more they take off of work, the less thier chances of getting that promotion, or even the annual raise.
It is seen as commendable for a woman to take the minimal maternity leave ( basically just to physically heal) and then return to work. No biggie. That is what day care is for right? bullsh!t. I hate to see women treated that way.
I hate to see fathers treated that way. I know when I had Bean, Mr Wolf got maternity leave. His job tourmented him for it. He took the entire 6 weeks given to him too. It was a year later that he got his promotion....... the one he was in line for BEFORE I had bean...

It is a sacrifice for people to even HAVE family and think they can work full time as well. Knowing that you can not miss alot of time at work keeps you away from important family issues. Instead of people fighting this idea that society has about family -balance- that leans twords work INSTEAD of family, they look at it as " DEDICATION and COMMITMENT"


assbackwards.

I know alot of women who took one or maybe even two years off between work to take care of one baby. Imagine if you had two, three or four. I didn't want to sound sexist so I didn't say this before. I think this is one of the main reasons women are not promoted as much in the workplace. Shewolf clearly stated it is a problem with the business culture and has nothing to do with gender..

Generally, women who want to be Prez of a company don't want 3-4+ children. So saying this is a reason women aren't promoted is not that accurate. ( I won't say wrong because some women might) Most "career women" don't want more than 1 or 2 kids, if any because they are so focused on their jobs and career. They often don't marry early either because they are in school and busting their ass trying to claw their way up the corporate ladder.

What burns my ass is that now days, instead of being a housewife and having one full time job, society expects us to be a mom and a career woman, thus giving us 2 full time jobs.

So where is the exact quote from Michael Jackson's baby?

What burns my ass is that now days, instead of being a housewife and having one full time job, society expects us to be a mom and a career woman, thus giving us 2 full time jobs

That's a good thing to be burned about. So basically one thing has to suffer. either your a full time mom and part time career woman or your a full time career woman and part time mother.

Exactly. Either be successful at home or in the workforce. What a load of crap.

I don't think you're sexist, Tenoch....way back when, I was TOLD I would have children and miss years of work by my bosses. This, despite the fact that I made it clear I'd never have children. To me, it was just an excuse, not a reason.

One thing that HAS changed (to my great relief) is that I see a lot more stay-at-home dads now than I did many years ago. So that excuse, hopefully, will be left behind in this Bright New Century.

I tried to get my tubes tied in my early 20's and was refused by several Drs/Clinics, because I was told I would later change my mind. To me it was just more of the "you don't know what you want because you're female" story.

Ooo!!! GRR!!! I remember doctors telling me the same f-n thing when I wanted my tubes tied.
I had 5 pregnancies, only one was successful. Doctors were tellling me things like.. NO, you DONT know yet. You are still in your 20's. Let the thought settle first. Or the famous.... WE cant do it before 28 yrs of age"
What a load-a-****.
I finally got my tubes tied after Bean was born. Simply because the doc who tended me during my pregnancy SAW how hard it was for me to carry a baby to term. He recommended me for surgery immediatly after she was born and THEN i got no question.. not but a year before I was the one who didnt know what I was talking about , according to the doctors. >humph<

I was reading in American Baby magazine today and saw things that really pissed me off.
There was an article about working moms and how to prepare for going back to work.
THe article said alot of things, but I noticed it STRESSED that a moms happiness was maintained by keeping her job?
That a happy healthy responsible mother made the best mother and it specifically said " That balance is reached by returning to work as quickly as possible"
What the hell is THAT about?!!!!
GRR!
SO i read on,
It went on to say that women who return to work after having a baby report more gender biased sexual ' harassment' then before. Not sexual harassment like we think of immediatly.. It was more along the lines of being given projects that are not up to your standards, that take no advantage of your abilities, and give you no opportunity for advancement.
GRANTED... having a new baby does create alot of mental stress and returning to work doesnt help diminish that in the least. So it is understandable that you would not be given critical assignments right after you return to work.. But this article's point was that this behavior never changes for a lot of women. They are reduced to simple, easy , non risky assignments in thier work place and more often then not passed over for advancement. The reasons for being passed over?? Hmm.. usually has to do with performance. No chance to stand out and prove yourself, no advancement.. vicious circle.

I wonder if males get this sort of BS when they ask for a vasectomy?. Somehow I don't think so!

HA!
A vasectomy is reversable.
Having your tubes tied is also... but more costly.
did you see my last post, about how the magazine was promoting women to work instead of staying home?
X(

Cripes, Shewolf, what's that about moms are happier with jobs??? You woudln't BELIEVE the suffering I witnessed all those years, watching mothers with young 'uns trying to Do It All. It was horrifying! Personally I have never seen such suffering in a society as affluent as ours.

Here's the whole downfall of Feminism, in my opinion, people saying that women must work in order to be Real People. I am a real, smart, actual person whether I work or not!

The problem is that women have divided into two camps: the "stay-at-homes" and the "works." The fact is, neither one is right or wrong, and we do not have the right to tell any other woman what to do with her life. But that's not how it's seen: stay-at-homes are called lazy and incompetent, works are called "ball-busters" who hate men. Cripes! The WHOLE POINT of Feminism is that we are all the same gender, and therefore we have equal interests the things that really matter to us! What matters? Getting rid of sexism once and for all (oh, good luck!).

Maybe, Shewolf, to be honest, this pisses me off so much because I think my own husband only thinks I can be a "strong woman" if I work full-time. F*ck that! I worked FT for 20 years, and it did NOT make me a stronger woman. It made me tired & it pissed me off due to sexism. Mr. Kitten is incapable, IMHO, of understanding this. He actually thinks Feminism succeeded, and women now have all the same rights & opportunities men do. So easy to say, when you're male!
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Ha! Took me so long to write this post, I only got your post after I was done!

Well, in a way Mr kitten is right.
We HAVE the legal jargon to back up our being able to work where we want and when we want.
You just cant legally make people abide by that. You cant make people THINK diffrently. The laws are in place for us to be equal.. yes.... but we are not treated so.
Just because we can now legally apply for that CEO job, doesnt mean that we will get it based on our sex. Can you enforce that?
No. because there are too many loop holes and no law can control anyones thinking.
Having said that, men will never quite understand what we as women MEAN when we say that we are still being judged for our sex. They dont live it . They dont understand.
That doesnt mean that there are not men who are not sensative to the subject, and that there are not men who can not SEE what is going on, it just means that since there is no prejudices against MEN, it isnt understood as well.

Feminism was supposed to be for equality. Wether or not you choose to stay at home with kids, or go out and work, the whole point was to be able to have that opportunity and not be held back by your sex.
Hmm... still seems there is a way to go in obtaining that goal.

Yes, right on the money there, Shewolf. Maybe the complacency I see in young women & girls is the same thing....they think Feminism has accomplished its goals & is thus a sort of moot point. We can change the laws, but we cannot change thinking.

One thing I haven't been able to understand is why I still see so few women in male-dominated fields. DH is an auto mechanic & has been for 15 years. He's never worked with a woman, nor heard of anyone working with a woman, nor been to a class in another town where a woman was present.

You'd think SOME women would be mechanically inclined, would enjoy that sort of work. It's not a matter of upper body strength (that's what levers are for)...so where are the women? Sure it's not a glamorous job, but they make Great money. Where are the women?
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I have an ancient copy of the book "Our Bodies, Ourselves." On the front cover is a photo of an old woman & a young woman holding a sign between them saying, "WOMEN UNITE!" Somewhere along the line, we abandoned this premise. We have no one but ourselves to blame.

women definatley have a way to go. They are not all there mentally yet. I'll take college sports for an example (cause it's what I know). Title IX was a good thing overall for women sports. It mandated that colleges give the same amount of opportunties for women athletes. Some colleges can't even fill up rosters when they create new sporting programs so they have to shut down some men programs to comply with the rule. all i'm saying is, "where are the female girls who want to play sports? where are the girls who can supports their sisters by buying tickets? women say we need more opportunities for women. They are created, but there sometimes aren't any women who will step up and take advantage of them.

you could also award a million schalarships for women who want to go to automechanic school. How many would even take them?

going on the sports example....


Did you know there was a professional female football league?

no.

You ever been to one of those football games shewolf?

that is my whole point.
Hardly anyone knows, yet, there IS a female football league.
Sad huh.