Blanket statement about women may make a great conversation

bm

The only diffrence between a man and a woman are the dangly bits !
We women have the convience of having our bits neat and tucked away.
Mens dangle..

Is it really unfortunate that that they had to act masculine to get ahead if the job requires it?

Shewolf,

Don't feel bad for being called frigid. If your were a guy, you would just be considered a serious person. Women sometimes think they can be feminine and successfull (in certain professions) at the same time. I tend to disagree with this statement. Many male dominated jobs require charastaristcs that by nature are considered masculine. Women are afraid of acting masculine when that is what is nessesary to do the job right. If a job requires somebody to be serious, cold, aggressive, outspoken, or any other masculine trait, girls are afraid of being labeled butch lesbians or things like that. I on the other hand respect a woman or man for having the right skills for the job.

It is unfortunate that women have to 'act' at all in order to get ahead. I also can't think of a situation where acting masculine would be required to get the job done. There's more than one way to the same endpoint. The traditional aggressive 'my way or the highway' approach and motivation by intimidation are not the only means to an end.

The reason they unfortunately have to act like men to get the job is that, for the most part, men are still making the decisions of who to put in those positions. Until we see the day when women are given the opportunities to get the job done by their own means we will continue to see the tough broad get the job - you have no idea how much I hate that term and the concept that goes with it.

That and the fact that there is this unspoken ' rule' about hiring women that applies to our hormones. >grumble<
Not so much a rule.. I should NOT say that.
But the thought that a woman will take things to lightly and be too sweet and kind and flooty-headed to get a job done right is often the thought in the back of some peoples minds when they hire a woman.
So the women HAVE to act mean, cold, and angry all the time so that they are taken seriously when they address a big issue with consideration. That way the consideration they apply isnt perceived as " hormonal ".

Oh , believe me , there was no offence taken.
What those guys didnt realize was that thier bullheaded behaviors won me some extra time with the instructors. The instructors were giving me extra attention in study halls and such so to sort of ' make up' for the name calling and the perceived discomfort.
To my advantage, I got good grades easier due to the embarassment of the instructor. The more they talked, the softer the instructor was with me.
Thier behaviors provided me with great help and a great seat in class.
Consequently, I was in the top 4 of my class and have a work rep to back it up. ;-)
Hell, sometimes I thank them.. in an assbackwards way.

Lucille Ball was the brains behind desilu productions. That was a mega corp in my childhood, and Desi Arnaz seemed just a hood ornament.

I agree that we need more women in power, but the fact is that the business world is not going to change overnight. Of course there are always different means to an end. However, I think that it is important not to be afraid of displaying certain charastaristics that seem masculin. You don't handle every situation the same. Results is what matters most. Money can be a great motivator. If feminine virtues got better results then I assume sombody would be making alot of money with mostly female corporate leadership. I'm looking at traits seperate of gender. I'll admit that sometimes i'm afraid of showing feminine traits at work because I am afraid that peers and superiors would interprete these traits as signs of being weak. That does not however mean that I sould not act "feminine." I don't want to limit myself to only masculine traits. I also think that you shouldn't limit yourself to only feminine traits because masculine ones might come in handy someday also.

For example:
I used to work in a hospital with alot of nurses. Some patients required somebody who was patient, caring, upbeat and gentle. I didn't care if it was a male or female nurse attended the patient as long as he/she could act with these qualities. Other times we needed a nurse who was bold, direct, firm but fair, and willing to show that he/she means business. Sometimes this person was male and sometimes she was female. I didn't care what gender as long that person could be like this. The best case scenario would be if a person could adapt to be both traditionally feminine or masculine depending on the case. Matching the skills to the job are more important to me than anything else.

Tenoch, you sound so sensible (RE the nursing comments especially)....but you know, I've seen very few changes from my corporate experiences 25 years ago to those described today.

Sure, businesses don't change overnight, but you'd think 25 years would be long enough to see some differences. Am I just not SEEING the differences?

That's what discourages me the most, that despite all our 1970's hopes for women, very few of those hopes have flowered. Does anyone have any theories as to WHY?

And the young women I meet are so....so...Girlish. Not all of them, certainly, but not all of them were Girlish in 1950, either (good example with Desi & Lucy). And not all of them were Girlish in 1920, either. If today's young women are our hope for the future, my hope is foundering.

An old corporate (female) pal once said, "All women's liberation got us was the right to work." Oh, no, was she actually right?

Maybe I'm just looking at the bad without paying enough attention to the good?

And I have to bring up real-life experiences, just for the record. First, I don't look or act particularly feminine. In 1995 I was working a Big Corporate Job and got on an elevator with a construction worker who was working on building improvements. He turned to me and said (who knows why?), "You look like you sit in a room all day telling people what to do." I replied, "F!ck You!" No doubt I could have thought of something better if I'd had more time, but he did shut up. Would he EVER have said this to a male?

At Anchor Glass Container Corporation's corporate headquarters in the late 1980's, on my first day, a man (a manager, no less) said, "So, are you the new heifer?" I'd never heard this expression before and was a little mystified. I called my Temp Service (luckily I wasn't a permanent employee) and asked to be re-assigned. They refused. I quit a couple of weeks later. In fact I refused to work for this particular temp service again.

In the meantime, I was bitterly disappointed to observe the women in this company acting so....Girlish. I realized they went along with it, actually encouraging the males to see them as sexual objects rather than workers. They played stupid, incompetent bunglers who couldn't lift a pencil without a male's help. In my mind it wasn't just the males' fault.

These are no doubt exceptions....but I find it hard to imagine any such bigotry being addressed to males.

What makes you say this?
What do you see today that is the same or worse from 25 years ago?

When I see a goodl looking girl, I automatically think she is not smart as a regular looking girl. I know this is bad and I shouldn't. It's just that I know guys. I am one, so I know. No matter how many guys won't hire or promote based on looks, there are always a few guys that will. Some women might say that they just use their looks to get ahead, on top of being really smart. But that's not my experience like borris kitten said.

I have a little sister who is 10 years younger than me. I many ways I feel like I had a big part in raising her, expecially in her education. She's a freshman in HS. Sh'es all honors, calculus, english, spanish, and history. On top of that she plays the sax. Still I have a hard time stopping her from feeling like she only has to compete against other girls. When she talks to me she tells me she got the highest grade of all the girls. I'm like great, but you should compete against the guys too. Also she is very attractive so I don't want her to become lazy and bcome less focused on school if she becomes popular in her High school.

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The rules of society only allow a woman to go so far in her sexual identity.
there is still the social convention that women who sleep around are sluts while men who do this are loveable cads, but i think even this is changing
social behaviors of women and how it seems to both of us that alot of women have taken on a role, make themselves fit into it , and use it to define themselves as a woman. WEAK example.. " If I am a woman then I must like pink,wear makeup and have a cat" So many women are almost carbon copies of the next that they are getting boring. In the area of entertainment.. ( i am using strip joints for an example ) there is still little room to move if you are a woman. Yeah, you can take your clothes off, dance around and make money. People pay you to do this. Some of those same people rape you later and tell you that you like it. Some of those same people think you are trash. Some of those same people wouldnt talk to you if you were to see them on the street because they have deemed you a " slut"

I wish girls weren't so similar. I'm tired of dating girls that are all the same. They all wear the same brand jeans. They all wear the same perfumes. They all listen to the same music. And they all value the same things. I find it refreshing when I meet a girl who is different. Tomboys, career driven women, punk-rock girls all turn me on.

It' funny cause everytime i meet a girl who is different, she doesn't have that many female friends. It almost seems like females are more critical about their own gender sometimes.

Despite the hope that the two sexes aren't relegating themselves to an insurmountable impasse evidence that this is happening is abundant.

Some girls I absolutely hated because they expected a free pass because they were good looking.
Because they were pretty, we didn't expect much from them and that is our fault. in fields like engineering, math, and sciences, the male to female ratio was like 10:1. Girls always had like two or three volunteers for tutoring or study groups the first day of class. They never had problems getting help if they didn't understand something. God dam, i hated these girls(probably more jealous than antything). I used to be extra mean to them and demanding towards them. Sometimes guy would sacrifice their own grades in order to help out a girl because she was good looking.
In my opinion women today are living in a ''male dominated'' world. All the top jobs in the world today are held by men! While women, the obviously superior gender, are left with secretarial jobs!
You are right in thinking that the young girls of today ARE diffrent.. but IMO.. not by much.
Instead of the princess /at home mom fantasy, it is almost a sence of " I just need to get by"
GRANTED.. that is a big blanket statement. But unfortunatly, you see more and more young women doing just that. I remember when I was in college and I was trying to get into some pre-reqs for general surgeory, I was laughed at by ALOT of men. Alot of the men in some of my classes were just shocked that i wanted to be anything other then a nurse. ?! WTF?
I was a 'bull dike' for wanting a position of power in the medical field. I was a frigid woman , an Ice Queen..
They are bubble-gum pop stars in thier own britches because that is what is OK. That is what is acceptable. And those who are not, usually do NOT have female friends.
She chased what was considered male dominated subjects. And did acceptionaly well. Still does to this day.. and what is she labled? Ice Queen.
She fell out of the norm society has allowed women to be in and is now shunned and publicly denied her sexuality and her femininity . Ice Queen, B!tch, Fridgid, etc.. are all terms thrown her way. Why ? Because she is smart. And that is intimidating.

It is unfortunate that women have to 'act' at all in order to get ahead.
The reason they unfortunately have to act like men to get the job is that, for the most part, men are still making the decisions of who to put in those positions. Until we see the day when women are given the opportunities to get the job done by their own means we will continue to see the tough broad get the job
That and the fact that there is this unspoken ' rule' about hiring women that applies to our hormones.
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Of course my comments about 25 years ago are from working in Corporate America, where, if I'd had a penis, I would have made a great deal more money and would have received many more promotions.

As for today, there were so many comments just in this thread that I couldn't even quote them all. Who would even guess this is 2005 and not 1985, or even earlier?

Oh, Tenoch, if we all had big brothers like you, the world would be a much better place!

You know (sorry I can't shut up) in my younger years I was both smart and good-looking, but I felt being good-looking was of no advantage at all in Corporate America. In fact it was something of a disadvantage even though I dressed Very conservatively.

The assumption was, if I was pretty, I couldn't be smart and hard-working....even though I really was, and went to great pains to prove it every day.

please DONT shut up! !! :-)
I , for some reason and I guess this is common to all younger generations, think that things were SO diffrent 30+ years ago. That the things we see today and experience today were never heard of in the older generations..
from your examples of this thread boris,
sounds like Same sh!t, diffrent skirt!

we are all "sluts"!

it's just a matter of how we deal with it, how we 'carry' it, how we 'socialize' it, and whether or not we can apply the same standards to others, that we apply to ourselves.

[it's all in the label]

[BorisKitten - In my opinion women today are living in a ''male dominated'' world. All the top jobs in the world today are held by men! While women, the obviously superior gender, are left with secretarial jobs!]

Dominance is a defence mechanism, predecated by a sense of inferiority!

[you must dominate what you don't understand - hence 'fear']

Shewolf, you got that right! And you stated it so succinctly!

I almost wonder if things aren't a tad WORSE now than when I started out in, say, 1980. Then, women seemed more optimistic about their chances (at least in corporate jobs). Books like "Womens Dress For Success," while admittedly Dumb, made us feel if we could only Do Things Right, we'd be running the place in 20 years. I remember how empowered I felt when I subscribed to the brand-new "Working Woman" magazine.

Towards the end of the century I saw lot more discouragement among workplace women, who'd been at it for 20-25 years and were STILL Secretaries. Maybe their daughters are so Girlish due to this discouragement....maybe these same women taught their daughters, "F!ck it, be a Princess, you've got no chance as a Senator!"

Maybe we hafta start a Feminism: Then & Now thread to prove me wrong (oh, PLEASE prove me wrong!)

While on this topic. How much of an impact does pregnancy and maternaty leave have on a career woman?