Plato's Allegory of the Cave (Questions)

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Some questions about this great work of Plato.

What do you think Plato's view towards the "so-called" common man is?
- Allegory of the Cave is the common man. According to Plato, they represent all people before they are fully educated. The common man sees nothing but the shadows on the wall of the cave. These shadows represent everything that we have ever seen, and since they are the only things we have ever seen, they constitute all that is real to us. Being fully educated involves the ability to see everything, including all that is outside the cave.... No?

What do you think the role of Glaucon is in this piece?
- Seriously, he is just saying "Yes. That is certain. Very true" et cetera? And considering that over the course of this particular discussion he responds affirmatively to Socrates' statements twelve times with no questions asked, it appears that Glaucon took Socrates' suggestion literally. Or?

And lastly, he writes that if an observer should "laught at the soul which comes from below into the light, there will be more reason in this than the laugh which greets him who returns from above out of the light into the den." What differences can you perceive in the laughter?-
- Just as the escaped prisoner ascends into the light of the sun, we amass knowledge and ascend into the light of true reality: ideas in the mind. Yet, if someone goes into the light of the sun and beholds true reality and then proceeds to tell the other captives of the truth, they laugh at and ridicule the enlightened one, for the only reality they have ever known is a fuzzy shadow on a wall. They could not possibly comprehend another dimension without beholding it themselves, therefore, they label the enlightened man mad.

Also, I fail to understand the meaning of "the intellectual is doomed always to be at odds with popular belief and thinking."

And in his description of the returnee to the cave whose eyes are made dim and weak by the unaccustomed shadows, what popular stereotype of the thinker does Plato despict? And what is your opinion on it?

Just some questions regarding this text.

For me, about staying or not staying in the cave.. My choice is simple; I would stay in the cave. I don't want to know about rape and murder and hate. I want to be naive and think that people are good and love each other. I want to believe that peace on earth is possible. I want to not have to question other people's intentions. Yes, I would get taken advantage of, but I wouldn't know the difference, If something bad enough happened, I'd just suppress the memory.

The text can be viewed here;
http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~wldciv/world_civ_reader/world_civ_reader_1/plato.html

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Sounds like a school assignment. Not going to help you there.

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I think Plato was talking about realizing the ideal truth according to his theory of forms, unattached to objects.

I would not stay in a cave of ignorance. Sure, I can suppress my memory, but the truth is still there, and thus I have responsibilities.
Ignorance is the enemy. It's not that we dont' have enough good people in this world, it's that there is not enough good people doing something about the problems of the world.

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I'm having trouble understanding "the intellectual is doomed always to be at odds with popular belief and thinking". What does Plato mean with this?

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Just watching, i wonder what jlnobody or asherman think.

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Merla wrote:

I'm having trouble understanding "the intellectual is doomed always to be at odds with popular belief and thinking". What does Plato mean with this?

Real Socrates was at odds with ordinary thinking in Athens and died. Plato watched it.

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Basically Plato is saying that the common man is not educated/intelligent?

What about the differences with the laugh from below and the laugh which greets him who returns from above our of the light into the den?

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Philosophers often use the "logic by cases":
case 1) ...
case 2) ...
and here, the cases are 1) uneducated person, 2) educated person..
One can understand those as logical possibilities.

Quote:

What about the differences with the laugh from below and the laugh which greets him who returns from above our of the light into the den?

A person who, as a logical possibility, grasped the Idea can sometimes behave the way which queer from an uneducated person, but the behavior, from Plato's view, should not be judged by rules in those who do not know the Ideal.

Allegory of the Cave is just an allegory: Simplification is the merit, though dangerous merit.

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Merla wrote:

Basically Plato is saying that the common man is not educated/intelligent?

In Plato's time the common man--if by common you mean average--was not educated. Whether or not he was intelligent was a bit beside the point. But I think that neither was Plato's point.

Is "the intellectual is doomed always to be at odds with popular belief and thinking" a direct quote from the Republic? ... it is not in the Allegory in any case, although it could be an interpretation of the Allegory.

As to the role of Glaucon, it might be worth your while to read the very beginning of The Republic, which you can find here. Few people remember that the entire conversation that Socrates has in the Republic comes about because he is waylaid on the road and sent to a house to talk by force.

Glaucon is asked whether people can be persuaded verbally not to use force if they refuse to listen. Good question. Glaucon's answer is quite short and probably similar to most people's. But the interaction between force, rhetoric, and persuasion is a major theme here.

I hope that helps.

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Absolutely great stuff. Thank you for the "The Republic" link. Very helpful!

Another question... In Plato's description of the returnee to the cave (whose eyes are made weak by the unaccustomed shadows) what popular stereotype of the thinker does Plato depict? And whats your view on it?

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Merla wrote:

In Plato's description of the returnee to the cave (whose eyes are made weak by the unaccustomed shadows) what popular stereotype of the thinker does Plato depict? And whats your view on it?

Not a stereotype, but real Socrates, who was described as a very strange man in "Symposium", for example, by Plato.

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Merla wrote:

In Plato's description of the returnee to the cave (whose eyes are made weak by the unaccustomed shadows) what popular stereotype of the thinker does Plato depict? And whats your view on it?

Do people who read a lot tend to have weak eyes?

Are their eyes made weak by the "unaccustomed" shadows or because they just came out of daylight?

Weren't they once "accustomed" to the shadows?

What does "the truth" do to people? You yourself wrote that you'd prefer to stay in the cave. Are there reasons for that you haven't considered yet?

Plato is suggesting a couple here.

I hope this helps.

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Thank you. "Are their eyes made weak by the "unaccustomed" shadows or because they just came out of daylight? " was a great one indeed.

bayinghound: What's your view on how Plato writes that "the intellectual is doomed always to be at odds with popular belief and thinking".

And lastly, Plato writes that if that an observer should "laught at the soul which comes from below into the light, there will be more reason in this than the laugh which greets him who returns from above out of the light into the den."
What's the difference between the two laughters?

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Merla wrote:

bayinghound: What's your view on how Plato writes that "the intellectual is doomed always to be at odds with popular belief and thinking".

Where in The Republic is this written? It is not in the Allegory of the Cave.

Merla wrote:

And lastly, Plato writes that if that an observer should "laught at the soul which comes from below into the light, there will be more reason in this than the laugh which greets him who returns from above out of the light into the den."
What's the difference between the two laughters?

What's the difference between the folks outside in the light when they laugh at the newcomer and the folks in the cave who have never seen the light when they laugh at the person who returns from the light?

What does one group know that the other group does not?

How would that change the quality of their laughter? Would one laughter, for example, be more informed than the other laughter? Would one group be laughing at a better joke than the other?

Perhaps you will come to a conclusion if you ask yourself those questions in that way.

In any case, I hope this helps.

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Thank you, all of you which have replied. Very helpful!

I have one last question... I have this following question to answer, but since I just moved to the US I have absolutely no idea what to answer...
"How does the composition and rule of the United States live up to, or refute, the concept of political leadership implied in this allegory?"

Thankful for any answer on that question...

Happy Valentine's Day!

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Plato's Allegory of the Cave (Questions)

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