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a scientific fact was mentioned 1400 years ago in Quran

 
 
Reply Sat 5 Feb, 2005 08:37 pm
Hi

I think everybody have heard about the big bang which happened billions years ago, and the scientists proved it latlely.

the great god had talked about this scientific fact in Quran 1400 years ago

this is the verse:

[30] Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of Creation), before We clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?

and this is the link:

http://quran.al-islam.com/Targama/DispTargam.asp?nType=1&nSeg=0&l=eng&nSora=21&nAya=30&t=eng

and this link is for whole Quran

http://quran.al-islam.com/Index/indexe1.asp
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Rex the Wonder Squirrel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Feb, 2005 10:05 pm
Quote:
I think everybody have heard about the big bang which happened billions years ago, and the scientists proved it latlely.


Riiiight. Think you could post the evidence that "the scientists" used to "prove it lately"?

Because, in reality and according to real science, the Big Bang theory[/u] is a load of crap. And even if they had the slightest bit of evidence to go off of, no scientist in their right mind would be stupid enough to go off and say that it is completely true.

And the scientific community has definitely not agreed on it as a fact. And since experiments can't be performed on the past, all it will ever be, at best, is a theory. A belief. And not a very good one at that.
0 Replies
 
Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2005 02:15 am
Rex the Wonder Squirrel wrote:
Quote:
I think everybody have heard about the big bang which happened billions years ago, and the scientists proved it latlely.


Riiiight. Think you could post the evidence that "the scientists" used to "prove it lately"?

Because, in reality and according to real science, the Big Bang theory[/u] is a load of crap. And even if they had the slightest bit of evidence to go off of, no scientist in their right mind would be stupid enough to go off and say that it is completely true.

And the scientific community has definitely not agreed on it as a fact. And since experiments can't be performed on the past, all it will ever be, at best, is a theory. A belief. And not a very good one at that.
"in reality and according to real science, the Big Bang theory is a load of crap"

not true, by quite a large margin. May I suggest reading Wrinkles in Time by George Smoot..revealing the evidence measured by the COBE satellite measuring fluctuations in the fabric of space time theorised to exist as a result of the big bang?

This from a review of the book...

"Cosmologists are now confident they can relate the history of the universe back to 10[-43] second after the Big Bang. To allow us to appreciate this triumph of human intellect, Smoot and Davidson include a cosmological history. From Aristotle to Ptolemy to Copernicus to Lemaitre and the Big Bang, cosmologists have painted an evolving, ever more precise picture of the universe. The pictures in these cosmologists' minds became the collective consciousness of their respective times."
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2005 02:53 am
Quote:
And even if they had the slightest bit of evidence to go off of, no scientist in their right mind would be stupid enough to go off and say that it is completely true.


Is this the same famous -if they don't know everything, they know nothing- kind of thinking I've been hearing bandied about in regard to evolution? Ya huh. No scientist, in their right mind or otherwise, talks in terms of complete truth, that's for philosophers and tv preachers.

Joe (The complete truth can't be complete or true.) Nation

oops I made a koan.
0 Replies
 
CoastalRat
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2005 08:12 am
Eorl wrote:
not true, by quite a large margin. May I suggest reading Wrinkles in Time by George Smoot..revealing the evidence measured by the COBE satellite measuring fluctuations in the fabric of space time theorised to exist as a result of the big bang?



Ok, just playing a bit of devils advocate here, but you are touting a theory and trying to prove that evidence of this theory is proven by the "fluctuations in the fabric of space time" which is THEORISED to exist as a result of the big bang. So you are trying to prove the validity of a theory with another theory? Nothing personal, but I doubt you will convince anyone of anything that way. That's like saying I have a theory that dogs can fly. As proof, I offer you my theory that cats can fly.

Gosh, isn't this game fun?
0 Replies
 
El-Diablo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2005 09:40 am
Quote:
Ok, just playing a bit of devils advocate here, but you are touting a theory and trying to prove that evidence of this theory is proven by the "fluctuations in the fabric of space time" which is THEORISED to exist as a result of the big bang. So you are trying to prove the validity of a theory with another theory? Nothing personal, but I doubt you will convince anyone of anything that way. That's like saying I have a theory that dogs can fly. As proof, I offer you my theory that cats can fly.

Gosh, isn't this game fun?


Yes it is and I'll play. You took his/her quote out of context. Rex stated "Because, in reality and according to real science, the Big Bang theory is a load of crap." and Eorl responded. he was not responding to proving it was a fact or theory but whether it was a "load of crap" or not.

Gosh isn't it fun when we take things out of context?
0 Replies
 
CoastalRat
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2005 10:34 am
El-Diablo wrote:
Quote:
Ok, just playing a bit of devils advocate here, but you are touting a theory and trying to prove that evidence of this theory is proven by the "fluctuations in the fabric of space time" which is THEORISED to exist as a result of the big bang. So you are trying to prove the validity of a theory with another theory? Nothing personal, but I doubt you will convince anyone of anything that way. That's like saying I have a theory that dogs can fly. As proof, I offer you my theory that cats can fly.

Gosh, isn't this game fun?


Yes it is and I'll play. You took his/her quote out of context. Rex stated "Because, in reality and according to real science, the Big Bang theory is a load of crap." and Eorl responded. he was not responding to proving it was a fact or theory but whether it was a "load of crap" or not.

Gosh isn't it fun when we take things out of context?


I totally understood that he was responding to the comment that it was a load of crap. So please tell me how, based upon the response given to that comment, he has proven it is not a load of crap. He is saying it is not a load of crap because something measurable is "theorized" to exist because of the big bang, a theory in and of itself. He sure has not shown that the statement made about scientists thinking the big bang is a load of crap is incorrect.

Yeah, this is fun.
0 Replies
 
CoastalRat
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2005 10:47 am
Oh, and before this gets too out of hand, I am not arguing the theory of the big bang. Quite frankly it is pointless to do so. It is a theory. Which means it is not a proven and in all probability cannot be proven. But one article that says what he quoted is not in my mind proof that the scientific community as a whole does not think the big bang theory is a load of crap.

Personally, I don't know what the scientific community as a whole thinks about the big bang theory. God could have brought about the beginning of the universe any way He wanted to.

I just think that before people here offer a rebuttal to a statement someone makes, they really ought to think about the logic they are using to refute the statement.

I will of course be awaiting your assessment of my thoughts as admittedly we may be reading something totally different into his words. I certainly will not preclude the possibility that I am missing something in his argument.
0 Replies
 
El-Diablo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2005 11:24 am
Personally i'm still not going to say the Big Bang is even close to correct because I believe the String theory and once it is better understand better theories for the Universe's creation will come about.

O and BTW

Quote:
revealing the evidence measured by the COBE satellite measuring fluctuations in the fabric of space time theorised to exist as a result of the big bang


That basically at least shows that it is NOT a bunch of junk. And of course I could dig up countless sites to say the same. If it has some evidence for it, it's not a load of crap it has some plausiblity.
0 Replies
 
smog
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2005 01:25 pm
In scientific terms, "theory" means, according to the OED:

Quote:
A scheme or system of ideas or statements held as an explanation or account of a group of facts or phenomena; a hypothesis that has been confirmed or established by observation or experiment, and is propounded or accepted as accounting for the known facts; a statement of what are held to be the general laws, principles, or causes of something known or observed.


Please keep this in mind before saying something is "only a theory" to scientists, since that actually is saying that it has been supported repeated times; a theory is quite strong for scientists, and most people who argue against these theories normally don't even look at the scientific definition of the word.

As for the Quran or God's motives in the creation of the universe, well, I'm not qualified enough to speak on those topics.
0 Replies
 
Rex the Wonder Squirrel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2005 01:35 pm
Quote:
not true, by quite a large margin.


Really? Well then, here's something to think about...

The universe has a boundary-- in other words, it has a center and an edge, and if you were to travel off into space, you would eventually come to a place beyond which there was no more matter. In this cosmology, the earth is near the center, as it appears to be as we look out into space. This might sound like common sense, as indeed it is, but all modern secular ("Big Bang") cosmologies deny this. That is, they make the arbitrary assumption (without any scientific necessity) that the universe has no boundaries-- no edge and no center. In this assumed universe, every galaxy would be surrounded by galaxies spread evenly in all directions (on a large enough scale), and so therefore all the net gravitational forces cancel out.

Also, there appears to be observational evidence that the universe has expanded in the past. If the universe is not much bigger than we can observe, and if it was only 50 times smaller in the past than it is now, then scientific deduction based on GR means it has to have expanded out of a previous state in which it was surrounded by an event horizon (a condition known technically as a "white hole"-- a black hole running in reverse, something permitted by the equations of GR).

It is fortunate that creationists did not invent such concepts such as gravitational time dilation, black and white holes, event horizons and so on, or we would likely be accused of manipulating the data to solve the problem. The interesting thing about this cosmology is that it is based upon mathematics and physics totally accepted by all cosmologists (general relativity), and it accepts (along with virtually all physicists) that there has been expansion in the past (though not from some imaginary tiny point). It requires no "massaging" -- the results "fall out" so long as one abandons the arbitrary starting point which the Big Bangers use (the unbounded cosmos idea, which could be called "what the experts don't tell you about the 'Big Bang'").

This new cosmology seems to explain in one swoop all of the observations used to support the "Big Bang," including progressive red-shift and the cosmic microwave background radiation, without compromising the data or the biblical record of a young earth. There is more detail of this new cosmology, at layman's level, in the book by Dr. Humphreys, Starlight and Time, which also includes reprints of his technical papers showing the equations.

Quote:
No scientist, in their right mind or otherwise, talks in terms of complete truth, that's for philosophers and tv preachers.


Which is exactly the point I was trying to make to khaled-- that "no scientist in their right mind would be stupid enough to go off and say that it is completely true", which is what he was implying with his statement.

Quote:
That basically at least shows that it is NOT a bunch of junk. And of course I could dig up countless sites to say the same.


And I could dig up countless more that say that it is a load of crap (getting in-depth about how the cosmological red shift is due to the Compton effect rather than the Doppler effect, etc., etc.). But Einstein once said to 100 physicists that disagreed with him, "If I were indeed wrong, they would have only needed one to disagree with me."

Quote:
If it has some evidence for it, it's not a load of crap it has some plausiblity.


Not exactly when that "evidence" is twisted around. Of course I could go outside, pick up a handful of gravel, and proceed to use it as evidence for an alien invasion, stating that the gravel are pieces of debris from a crashed alien warship.

But in reality, and according to real science, that's a load of crap. Same with the Big Bang theory.
0 Replies
 
El-Diablo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2005 01:56 pm
Quote:
That is, they make the arbitrary assumption (without any scientific necessity) that the universe has no boundaries-- no edge and no center. In this assumed universe, every galaxy would be surrounded by galaxies spread evenly in all directions (on a large enough scale), and so therefore all the net gravitational forces cancel out.


And earlier in your post you made the arbitrary assumption that it DOES have boundaries.

And this will probably mean nothing to you or anyone but they are not aribitrary assumptions. Assumprions yes but not arbitrary. They reach these assumptions based on what fits and what is most probable in the math of relativity and quantum mechanics (and soon string theory).

Quote:

Not exactly when that "evidence" is twisted around. Of course I could go outside, pick up a handful of gravel, and proceed to use it as evidence for an alien invasion, stating that the gravel are pieces of debris from a crashed alien warship.


But your theory wouldn't comply with math or teh Doppler effect would it? :wink:

Quote:
The universe has a boundary-- in other words, it has a center and an edge, and if you were to travel off into space, you would eventually come to a place beyond which there was no more matter.


This is conjecture. I don't agree with this though it's jsut me. But don't hold it as evidence; you have no idea if there is a boundary.

Quote:
This might sound like common sense


Under the foundations of science this common sense is good. Bu in the nuances and complications no longer is "inate" human "common sense" enough. But we tend to rely on math. That TV show "numbers" said it best "Humans lie; Numbers don't". We just have to find the right way to plug the numbers in.

Quote:
And I could dig up countless more that say that it is a load of crap


Wrong maybe but not a load of crap. Once again so long as some plausible evidence is there it is a viable theory.

I'm interested in YOUR views of the universe's creation and evidence for it Rex.
0 Replies
 
Rex the Wonder Squirrel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2005 03:27 pm
Quote:
And earlier in your post you made the arbitrary assumption that it DOES have boundaries.


Next time, when you quote me, I would prefer you quote the entire sentence which you are refuting and not just taking out a small portion. I said "That is, they make the arbitrary assumption (without any scientific necessity) that the universe has no boundaries-- no edge and no center."

The assumption that the universe does have boundaries was made with observational scientific evidence. I am wondering what similar evidence you could provide (and don't even mention the Doppler effect, like I already noted, the the cosmological red shift is due to the Compton effect rather than the Doppler effect, and that does not support the Big Bang theory) that supports a universe without boundaries.

Quote:
But your theory wouldn't comply with math or teh Doppler effect would it?


Well it wouldn't need to, since, again, the the the cosmological red shift is due to the Compton effect rather than the Doppler effect. So the Doppler effect has no bearing on this matter.

Quote:
This is conjecture. I don't agree with this though it's jsut me. But don't hold it as evidence; you have no idea if there is a boundary.


Well duh, everything is conjecture on this scale, since there at the moment there is really no way to test these theories. But going on the observational and scientific evidence that we have gathered, the universe almost has to have a boundary.

Quote:
Under the foundations of science this common sense is good. Bu in the nuances and complications no longer is "inate" human "common sense" enough. But we tend to rely on math. That TV show "numbers" said it best "Humans lie; Numbers don't". We just have to find the right way to plug the numbers in.


With the mathematical information we already have, it's common sense to anyone who understands it. Pick up Dr. Humphrey's book and look through all of those calculations. Wink

Quote:
Wrong maybe but not a load of crap.


What, are we trying to assign a scientific definition to "load of crap" now? Razz

Let me elaborate-- by "load of crap" I meant that it was wrong. I made that choice of words to more emphatically convey my point that it is not only wrong, but absurd to even consider as a true fact (which is what khaled implied in his opening post, and which I refuted with my phrase of "load of crap" Wink ).

Quote:
Once again so long as some plausible evidence is there it is a viable theory.


Well, where's that plausible evidence? The Doppler effect doesn't relate here, and observational evidence points to a universe with boundaries that doesn't support the Big Bang theory, so what else have you got?

Quote:
I'm interested in YOUR views of the universe's creation and evidence for it Rex.


My views on the universe's creation? Read Genesis. On the universe's "expansion"? Read Isaiah 42:5; Jeremiah 10:12; Zechariah 12:1, et al.

I posted some evidence in my above post. If you'd like even more, just ask. Smile
0 Replies
 
Etruscia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2005 03:43 pm
Please define boundries of the universe. What is the universes boundry. What is it like. The universe is expanding, and not only is it expanding, its expansion rate is accellerating. It all has to do with dark matter (anti-matter) or so im told, which is what drivers the universe to expand. If someone knows more, pipe up.
0 Replies
 
Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2005 11:35 pm
Thanks for your defence in my abscence El Diablo it was very close to my position. My actual position is not even that "the theory is not crap" but rather that "real science" does not consider it to be crap. And also I was not presenting theory as evidence of theory, I was presenting factual data (the measured fluctuations in the background radiation of the universe by COBE) that was only looked for in the first place because it was theorised to exist. This adds an extra weight to the theory. It's like saying..."based on these tire marks, I think the car is in the river"...you look in the river and find the car exactly where you theorised it to be...it makes your theory extremely strong.
0 Replies
 
 

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