Amuse me, esp. the ladies (need your opinion)

Well but those are hardly cutting edge fashion magazines are they? Best-selling mags country-wide perhaps, but definitely not the urban cutting edge stuff I think Ebeth's talking about.


(Dont I just love getting myself involved in this woman-to-woman I-know-best-whats-hip catfight thingie )


Oh, and Jo - those two pics last page - you're very cute ...

nimh, these are the only 2 magazine of its kind in Germany,
and they have the largest circulation countrywide, ergo best-selling and cutting edge (we're talking about Germany here nimh).

I would never question fashion in Toronto or all of Canada for that matter, however, I do know what's en vogue in most of Europe.

Your turn!

Heh! OK, what about ...

"Best selling" is almost never "cutting edge"? Best-selling means MOR! I mean, theres a lot of small towns in Germany. Hell, sometimes it seems Germany is just one huge expanse of boring small towns, with Berlin the only, sudden, but very bright spotlight alite ...

Anyway, this is the mini-chain of hip hairdressing in Holland: Kinki
(I used to go there but I thought it was still too conveyor belt ... so I looked up more individual hairdressers. But I spose Kinki does kinda represent standard-cutting edge in Holand.)

OK, so now you two get to decide - whats this, chunky or streaky or what, cause I dont actually understand what "chunky" means!

top left one looks hip!

Well nimh, for having such negativity about Germany, no need to talk about it then, right?

Kinki might be cutting edge in Holland, but frankly
I haven't seen anybody like this walking around daylight
either here, L.A. or in most parts of Europe (excluding
Holland of course).

For my boring small town taste, it just looks plain awful,
but then again, I don't live in cutting edge Holland either, thank God I might add

Heh!

Hey, I'm Dutch, of course I talk negatively about Germany!

Seriously tho - its kind of schizophrenic. I mean, on the one hand Germany is usually a year or two behind on Holland when it comes to fashion - or music, for that matter. (Which I will note is already a great improvement on earlier decades, when it was behind, like, five years - I mean, anyone remember Nena? Or those ubiquitous dark-blue denims Germans wore in the 80s? )

On the other hand - they got Berlin. (And possibly Hamburg as well, never been there.) And Berlin is obviously by far hipper, nowadays, than any city in Holland has been for a while - Amsterdam included. No contest. Berlin's hot.

The top-right model in my collage is obviously all too glamour to come across much on the street, by the way, but the top-left one - sure - I know a girl who looks just like that. The two on the bottom - well, even here in provincial Utrecht, go to a regular Club Risk night at the Winkel, and you can see that too, easily.

Oh, that's what it is? German designers like Jil Sander,
Hugo Boss and Joop are 2 years behind the dutch designer,
who at this point still remain nameless, due to fameless.

I do realize that the Dutch don't like the Germans,
but despite the antipathy, one should not lose sight
of reality.

LOL! Did I step on someone's willy, as we say here in Holland?

Seriously, are you German? I hadnt realised you lived in Germany, I thought you were in America ... huh. Now, in reply, I could go off touting "Dutch Design" and all that, but I wont ... thats just silly "my-willy-is-bigger-than-yours-stuff". And I wasnt really talking about the top end anyway. I was talking about what you see on the street, in the clubs, or yeah - in magazines like Brigitte compared to its Dutch counterparts, I dont know.

I mean, I go to Germany every year, different cities, and its just ... Well, just like you have to go to Berlin to see what we might be getting here in a year or two, if instead you go to Cologne or Hannover or even Frankfurt, it's yesterday's trends compared to what you see in Amsterdam or Rotterdam. Not that there arent hip Germans - hey, some of my best friends are German <grins>. I had one really hip German friend, graphic designer, had her own studio in Berlin for a while ... and she liked coming to Holland so she could pick up on the latest style / design stuff ... Hah!

Seriously, despite my silly smiley-lines and stuff, no slight intended. Its just how it goes ... Its all center/periphery theory, how networks branch out and stuff. The UK is always way ahead. We follow something like 1-3 years later (if the trend arrives here at all). Like Belgium, most of Germany is then again a year or two later - whether its the latest music, or fashion trends in the club, or style ... whatever. But that difference between countries is dwarfed in any case by the difference between city and province. Go to Deventer or Tilburg here and stuff is way behind again on anything you might see in a large-sized German town. <shrugs> Kind of a non-issue, really.

So where are you?

Oh - I'm so glad you're here nimh. [size=7] (I didn't want to be the one who said what you did about Freundin, but ohhhhhhhh yeah brother). [/size=7]

I'm American and live in southern California, where the true trendsetters are, since no one really cares what other people wear. Yet I was born in Munich, and I know of the affinity the
dutch have for the Germans.

Look, I know that the leading german designers are very
well sought after, but now you're telling me, that's not
good enough, now the street scene is more important.
In essence you might be right, but what does the world care,
what's worn in the streets of Amsterdam? You honestly
think these are the trendsetters, than I will leave you with
this thought, who am I to change your mind, I know it is
not the case and that's good enough for me.

ehbeth, so why did you copy the hair design from the "Freundin"
and sold it as the latest fab? Could it be, that you're swaying your flag
with the slightest breeze?

LOL! Remind me never to get in a discussion about fashion again - Politics is safer! Miaaooww baby!

Look, I think this is what my points have been: (how's George ever to take me seriously again? ;-))

Ebeth was talking about what was "cutting edge". You rebutted by referring to Freundin and Brigitte. I said those are hardly "cutting edge". Logical, because mainstream, MOR bestselling stuff rarely is - thats kinda the essence of "cutting edge", that its ahead of mainstream taste. And mainstream popular taste in Germany - as seen on the streets, cafes and clubs, yes - is, in my observation, a year or two behind on what you see in Holland, Berlin excepted of course. Though the comparison is hard to make, because the difference between big towns and small towns within each country is bigger than that between the two countries.

Questions?


Look, first you bring up Brigitte and Freundin to rebut a point about what cutting-edge fashion is and brush aside my Kinki.nl collage because you "haven't seen anybody like this walking around daylight"; but now I'm not to speak of what people on the street look like because who cares about the "street scene", what counts is what "the leading german designers" do ...?

Hey, no prob. Cutting edge German design is probably at least as cutting edge as current Dutch design - and more to the point, much more cutting edge than what you'd see in Brigitte or Freundin, I'm sure. Whereas the street scene in Berlin is ahead of that in Amsterdam, but that of the rest of Germany behind on Holland.

That cover it?

My ex is from Southern California ... heh. Culture quite of its own, eh? ;-)

What struck me a few times recently is how all this hierarchy of cities/countries could be changing, anyway. Its what in Dutch we call "the law of the braking lead" (my dictionary says: "the dialectics of progress") - the more you're ahead, the more your development might slow down because of laziness, self-satisfiedness, while those further behind but moving up can do so by leaps and bounds, unencumbered by vested interests or rooted legacies.

Eg, when I was in Budapest two weeks ago I was in a cafe / restaurant or two that were decorated in staggeringly over-the-top ueberhipness unseen in Berlin - let alone Amsterdam, with its century-old tradition of casual "brown" Dutch pubs. And when I was in Greece I again noted that even a provincial town like Larissa seems to have a bigger concentration of hip, loungy-looking cafes than Amsterdam, with new ones springing up all the time.

So who knows what changes await us!


---
The Liszt Ter establishment of Cafe Leroy: note that the "chandeliers" are made of empty plastic bottles with light bulbs montaged into them. Otherwise too the place looks much more unusual than the pictures suggest ...



This is the more ordinary Sas utca establishment:

NIMH, I think it's great fun to hear about & even see fashions in other countries, having lived in Florida for 30+ years. I like it.

Seems to me the more people a place has, the more it's in tune with current fashion (not Always true, but often). That's not necessarily a good thing....I can't say I like any of those hairstyles (for myself), but I do like to see them. Actually, I let my husband cut my hair one time, and it looked sort of like those cuts, but rather worse.

Here in Central Florida, we have a lot of Really Big Pick-Up Trucks passing for "fashion," and many of the women are (some of them Fantastically) overweight.

I wear what I like to wear, look how I like to look (make-up once a month, maybe), and around here, nobody seems to care at all. I sorta like that.

NIMH, you have an Excellent command of the English language. Wish I were so fluent in something other than my native tongue!

Ha nimn, you don't think I let you off that easy, do you

I did not mention german magazines first, it was ehBeth
with

She then proceeded to show pictures of one of the 2 leading
german fashion magazines ( I still had not mentioned them
by then). However, I did correct her in saying that these
particular german magazines (I named them for references)
have no where hairmodels with chunks in them (which is true).

Next thing. you come along, throw in Holland as cutting
edge fashion metropolis, and that Germany is 2 years behind
everything, and the german fashion magazines are boring small town taste, whereas Holland (again) is cutting edge

In mentioning the famous german designers, you again
tell me, that's not cutting edge like Holland is.

Frankly, I don't care what's cutting edge in Holland, my intend
initially was, to disagree with ehBeth who gave the impression
that chunks are everywhere the latest rage (North America,
Europe, Canada) except little rural towns where we obviously must live. I did prove her wrong.

Whatever you're trying to sell me, let me tell you, it's
really cute, but not necessary. I believe you that Holland
is so much better than Germany. Heck every country claims to, so why not Holland too?

It's true however, that we southern Californians have a
culture of our own, that we religiously follow

So, now back to reality - which means helping my 9year old
one with her school projects <sigh>

By the way, I deliberately don't write in "Politics" as I am so opinionated
my stay here at ak2 would be very short lived.

Well, isn't this a learning experience. Hi-lites, hi-lites, whereever you go. I went to the Toni + Guy site - sites, plural. Toni + Guy the hairdressers. Toni + Guy are cutting edge, right? Well, here's them pictures for all those who are curious - there's some cool, and some silly stuff in the style galleries! Its cool. Cant paste 'em in here without laborious photo-shopping tho - the sites be all in Flash - so follow the links.

Wish I could go, but I dont think I can afford to ...

Toni + Guy UK

Toni + Guy Ireland

Toni + Guy USA

Google image search for Toni + Guy

A tangential comment - I am much more interested in style than fashion, but fashion amuses me to follow from afar - quite afar as I personally am never adorned in a fashionable way.

Some of the cacaphonic twirl of opinions may be complicated by interest levels in these two sides of choice making about hair (clothing, household artifacts, whatever..).

Street, be it the barrio or ghetto of LA or urban streets of Europe, reflects the immediacy of inventive venturing with adornment.
Jil Sanders epitomizes a personal style developed into an clothing empire, although with some recent ups and downs. Her designs are not middle of the road, they are top of the hill as an example of style; but they're also not hip (or whatever the current word is) re the fashion world.

Awright, but after this I'm gonna give up tho!

Osso's got a good point tho. I mean, "cutting edge" what? We talking haute couture, the latest fashion in affluent style or hip urban culture? And re the urban streets of Europe: whats hip among the loungy, (post-)club culture ironic Wallpaper* crowd is not whats hip among the streetwise colourful barrio gangsta crowd, you know...

I was always just talking about whats hip, I guess. (The loungy kind I mean - I'm too much of an intellekshual to talk about ghetto fashion.)

When was the last time you were in Germany, btw? Munich is a city I've never been to - and I wasnt in Hamburg or Bremen either. Just Berlin, Hannover, Osnabruck, Cologne, Bonn, Frankfurt, Wiesbaden, Mainz, Nurnberg, Dresden ... it's a charming country, but I cant imagine living anywhere but Berlin until I'm a little older.
What did you think of the Toni + Guy stuff? They've got shops in A'dam and R'dam, too, look real fancy. But it is a chain, they got shops in about every UK town I think ...

(nimh likes fancy stuff, but not chains)

OK, to business.


No fair! I did not say ANY of that.

I didnt call Holland a "cutting edge fashion metropolis" - in fact, I explicited that "we follow [the UK] something like 1-3 years later (if the trend arrives here at all)." Not to mention where I wrote that "Berlin is obviously by far hipper, nowadays, than any city in Holland has been for a while - Amsterdam included. No contest."

I did not say that "Germany is 2 years behind everything" - I said that Germany, Berlin excepted, is in my observation "usually a year or two behind on Holland". Just like Holland in turn is behind the UK. I dont claim my country to be #1 or anything. Its kind of a sucky country. Just that trends tend to travel East - from the UK outwards. Ask the people in Minsk ;-).

OK, I did say - or meant to say, anyway - that the German fashion magazines you quoted are "boring small town taste". I mean, come on. Brigitte.

Again, I did not say "Holland is cutting edge". Nowhere, actually. That was you, when you saw the Kinki pics that did feature the stuff Ebeth said was all the rage (and that you said "Europe never went into in the first place" and is "definitely out, and thank God") and sneered that you "haven't seen anybody like this walking around daylight either here, L.A. or in most parts of Europe [..] but then again, I don't live in cutting edge Holland, thank God".

<insert rolling eyes smiley>


I so did not. I wrote: "Cutting edge German design is probably at least as cutting edge as current Dutch design". Whats "at least as" mean? I'm sure cutting edge German design is really, eh, cutting edge, just like the Dutch. It's popular taste in most of the country thats kinda a little behind - and thus the stuff you'd see in, say, Brigitte, or on the RTL fashion review or something. Hence how quoting that doesnt prove anything wrong...


<points up>


Every country claims to be better than Germany? Well, I can understand that ... (JOOOOOOKE!). Seriously - I aint saying my country's the best - well, I'm repeating myself. Looks to me like you got all worked up over a perceived slight of your country - but dont project your jingoist long toes on me, lady! ;-)

And yes, should you venture onto the Politics threads, you'd have to lose the inclination to make up things the other person said. I dont care all that much about hair (except for mine), but I hate it when people do that to me. Bloody straw men. Straw is soooo last year, darling.

(This must have been the silliest discussion I got myself into here, like, ever! )

I wonder if this is what Jo had in mind when she said, "amuse me" ... )

I find it amusing! :-)

Although I think the "what is hip?" stuff is actually interesting. Or whatever you want to call it -- cool, street, cutting-edge. I'll say hip. Back when I actually was hip (no longer), it was much faster and individualized than any magazine or fashion designer -- if it was in a magazine, it was over. Hip was what influenced the fashion designers (as Osso says), not the other way around. Hip was finding something in a vintage store and doing something new with it, cutting your hair a new way, coloring it a new way. Hip is very closely tied to new.

Then it trickles down, to high fashion designers (except for the ones who do things that are truly new, Issey Miyake or whomever), to regular fashion designers, to trendy boutiques, to trendy chains, to regular stores. Your degree of hipness depends on at what level it impacts you. I used to be at the influencing-fashion stage -- now I'm barely at trendy chains on a good day.