God and Omniscience

Rex the Wonder Squirrel wrote:

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why are you trying to use logic to explain god? Its about faith

Because if I didn't use logic to explain God, then I would have little to no basis to ground my faith in...

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And also along with that who created god? It is illogical to think that god just was always around

No, it's not illogical to think that God "just was always around." Science has already proven that the universe had to have a beginning, so obviously it wasn't "just always around". And everything that has a beginning has a cause. So God created time when He created the universe-- and it's illogical to assume that He's bound by the restrictions of that time...including the need to have a beginning.

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If he is outside our universe he must be gone?

Not hardly. He existed outside the universe before the universe was created because He created it, and He wasn't gone then.

Besides, you took my quote out of context-- I said God was outside of the universe in comparison to the laws of physics, which exist only in the universe. I never said that God existed only outside of the universe-- quite the contrary, since He's omnipresent.

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GOD OBVIOUSLY MADE US CAPABLE OF QUESTIONING HIM SO IF HE DIDN'T WANT TO BE QUESTIONED, HE WOULDN'T HAVE MADE US THE WAY WE ARE !!!!

Of course he did. He gave us freedom. I never said anything even remotely against that fact.

In fact, I was saying exactly what you did-- that he gave us the thought processes we use to question Him. What I said-- and again, you took it out of context-- was that it amazes me that anyone actually attempts to disprove the existence of the being that gave them their ability to think.

Questioning is not the same as disproving-- questioning implies that you don't know all the facts yourself, and are looking for answers. Disproving implies that you have the facts and know the answers aren't what you're disproving.

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I would say that God is infinitely simpler, so simple in fact that it is hard to grasp Him intelectually.

Well by "more complex than the laws of physics" I basically meant that the laws of physics are able to be comprehended, whereas the fullness of God cannot be. "Complex" for us to completely understand Him. I actually agree with you on what you went on to say.

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I use personal pronouns in an attempt to form relationship with.

Exactly. When I talk of God and use "He", I conveying the fact that this is the being that loves me and I love back. Not some distant hovering mist to be referred to as an object "it".

I used logic to figure out why I believe..... you just think you have to be a certain religion to believe in a higher power (thats what I think anyway)

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rosborne979 wrote:

Rex the Wonder Squirrel wrote:
When I talk of God and use "He", I conveying the fact that this is the being that loves me and I love back. Not some distant hovering mist to be referred to as an object "it".

Fair enough.

So then you wouldn't mind saying "she" instead of "he", because the reference is just to something that loves, and is loved, not gender specific, right?

Very good point thats why I don't even like to say god (because it is just a word really ) but I also can say we might now the word god because there could be a higher power that no one understands because no single person could try to understand god

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00 Agent Kid wrote:

inner-peace wrote:
You are amazingly brainwashed .... GOD OBVIOUSLY MADE US CAPABLE OF QUESTIONING HIM SO IF HE DIDN'T WANT TO BE QUESTIONED, HE WOULDN'T HAVE MADE US THE WAY WE ARE !!!!

Well, He gave us free will for a reason. He didn't want a bunch of mindless drones to worship him: he wanted us to ponder, question, and ultimately decide on our own. This is why we have free will in the first place.

good point

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rosborne979 wrote:

Rex the Wonder Squirrel wrote:
When I talk of God and use "He", I conveying the fact that this is the being that loves me and I love back. Not some distant hovering mist to be referred to as an object "it".

Fair enough.

So then you wouldn't mind saying "she" instead of "he", because the reference is just to something that loves, and is loved, not gender specific, right?

I know it wasn't addressed to me, but I wouldn't mind addressing God as She -- and sometimes do. Shechinah is a feminine word. El Shadai means breasted God or God of Breasts. Rachamin is translated as mercy but it is actually related to rechem, womb. He or She makes no difference. HaMaqom is good because it just means The Place and really doesn't have any strong idea of gender attached to it, but these are just words people use. Whatever works best.

Dauer

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dauer wrote:

I know it wasn't addressed to me, but I wouldn't mind addressing God as She -- and sometimes do. Shechinah is a feminine word. El Shadai means breasted God or God of Breasts. Rachamin is translated as mercy but it is actually related to rechem, womb. He or She makes no difference. HaMaqom is good because it just means The Place and really doesn't have any strong idea of gender attached to it, but these are just words people use. Whatever works best.

Hi Dauer,

I guess the point I'm trying to make with this He/She/It thing is that most people seem to have a somewhat conflicted vision of what even their own God is.

For example, almost everyone who says they believe in "a God", will say that their God is a supernatural deity. And it's pretty obvious that a supernatural deity isn't human, and therefor can't be male or female. Any yet, those same people tend to cling to a vision of God which is Human, either in form, or in thought.

Obviously not everyone fits this mold, but enough people do, that I find it confusing trying to reconsile the visions they are describing.

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Ros,

I think what tends to happen is that people will commit to their experience of God, or their way to relate to God. They will lose sight of the fact that God is beyond their sight and that their way of relating to God is merely a tool for understanding a relationship with (and for making intimate) the ineffable.

All Godtalk is metaphor, some of it most likely extremely inaccurate.

Dauer

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dauer wrote:

Ros,

I think what tends to happen is that people will commit to their experience of God, or their way to relate to God. They will lose sight of the fact that God is beyond their sight and that their way of relating to God is merely a tool for understanding a relationship with (and for making intimate) the ineffable.

All Godtalk is metaphor, some of it most likely extremely inaccurate.

Dauer

Yes, you might be right. Another way of looking at might be that when religious people talk about "Humans" they are really talking about their perception of "spirit". And when they talk about God, they are talking about the Spirit also. And when they say we were created in his image, maybe they weren't talking about a physical image at all, but the spirit image.

Since "Spirit" is a non-scientifically definable concept for Humans and Gods, it allows enough fudge factor to give it any type of personal pronoun you want, especially when you widen the meaning of "he" to be the essence of spiritual masculinity and not the physical or reproductive aspects of biology.

But still, people are applying their perception of spiritual masculinity onto a deity, and most people also apply their own assumptions of right and wrong onto the deity as well. So much of our thoughts and views are results of what it is to be physically human, that I can't see the rationality in thinking that a deity would be even remotely similar in thought and deed.

I think there is still a lot of denial going on.

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Yes, you might be right. Another way of looking at might be that when religious people talk about "Humans" they are really talking about their perception of "spirit". And when they talk about God, they are talking about the Spirit also.

I think some religious people would agree with you explicitly and others would vehemently reject such a notion. Since we have no access to their thoughts besides the ones they allow us, it may be best to accept their fumblings to explain.

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And when they say we were created in his image, maybe they weren't talking about a physical image at all, but the spirit image.

That would pretty much be the Jewish answer. Although some would suggest it is pure intellect which resembles God and some would suggest the soul is actually a part of God. Other variations too, but no physical image.

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Since "Spirit" is a non-scientifically definable concept for Humans and Gods, it allows enough fudge factor to give it any type of personal pronoun you want, especially when you widen the meaning of "he" to be the essence of spiritual masculinity and not the physical or reproductive aspects of biology.

I agree. This is where I think metaphor comes in. I never associated the He of God with genitalia, nor the She of God with genitalia.

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But still, people are applying their perception of spiritual masculinity onto a deity, and most people also apply their own assumptions of right and wrong onto the deity as well. So much of our thoughts and views are results of what it is to be physically human, that I can't see the rationality in thinking that a deity would be even remotely similar in thought and deed.

Yes, I agree. There is something the Talmud that says the Torah speaks in the language of man, which basically renders all descriptions of God as man's attempt to understand God based on his experiences of the world, even if (according to the Orthodox) the text is entirely from God.

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I think there is still a lot of denial going on.

True true. As long as it doesn't hurt anybody I'm fine with it. When it's causing damage I become very concerned.

Dauer

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I used logic to figure out why I believe..... you just think you have to be a certain religion to believe in a higher power (thats what I think anyway)

You definitely don't have to be a part of a certain organized religion to believe in a higher power. Granted, whatever you say you believe can be grouped in a religion (for example, from what I've gathered of you here, you carry some traits of a deist and agnostic...which doesn't necessarily mean you're either), but your own personal belief is the only thing that matters.

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But still, people are applying their perception of spiritual masculinity onto a deity, and most people also apply their own assumptions of right and wrong onto the deity as well. So much of our thoughts and views are results of what it is to be physically human, that I can't see the rationality in thinking that a deity would be even remotely similar in thought and deed.

I think there is still a lot of denial going on.

Like innerpeace said, they're only words. Words only have meaning in contexts, not in the abstract. All of the major world religions came to us in the context of patriarchal cultures, and the texts themselves were all--or almost all--written by men.

In the biblical tradition, the Jewish and Christian writers wanted to avoid any suggestion that they were referring to some sort of fertility religion, and so they did not refer to God as a female, by and large. And in the Christian tradition, God is called "Father" because it believed that God was indeed the father of Jesus, and Jesus taught his followers to address God as he had done, in the famous Lord's Prayer (Ma. 6:9-13).

So I don't have a real problem with it at all either way. It's just very trivial in my own belief-- I consider God my "Father in heaven", but I don't apply any masculine attributes to God in my own mind. Neither do I apply any feminine attributes to God in my own mind.

So will you ever see me referring to God as "She"? Probably not, but only because "He" is quicker to type. And again "It", while equally as short, doesn't convey the fact that He's a personal God to me.

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Rex the Wonder Squirrel wrote:

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I used logic to figure out why I believe..... you just think you have to be a certain religion to believe in a higher power (thats what I think anyway)

You definitely don't have to be a part of a certain organized religion to believe in a higher power. Granted, whatever you say you believe can be grouped in a religion (for example, from what I've gathered of you here, you carry some traits of a deist and agnostic...which doesn't necessarily mean you're either), but your own personal belief is the only thing that matters.

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But still, people are applying their perception of spiritual masculinity onto a deity, and most people also apply their own assumptions of right and wrong onto the deity as well. So much of our thoughts and views are results of what it is to be physically human, that I can't see the rationality in thinking that a deity would be even remotely similar in thought and deed.

I think there is still a lot of denial going on.

Like innerpeace said, they're only words. Words only have meaning in contexts, not in the abstract. All of the major world religions came to us in the context of patriarchal cultures, and the texts themselves were all--or almost all--written by men.

In the biblical tradition, the Jewish and Christian writers wanted to avoid any suggestion that they were referring to some sort of fertility religion, and so they did not refer to God as a female, by and large. And in the Christian tradition, God is called "Father" because it believed that God was indeed the father of Jesus, and Jesus taught his followers to address God as he had done, in the famous Lord's Prayer (Ma. 6:9-13).

So I don't have a real problem with it at all either way. It's just very trivial in my own belief-- I consider God my "Father in heaven", but I don't apply any masculine attributes to God in my own mind. Neither do I apply any feminine attributes to God in my own mind.

So will you ever see me referring to God as "She"? Probably not, but only because "He" is quicker to type. And again "It", while equally as short, doesn't convey the fact that He's a personal God to me.

ya squirrel (lol i never really knew who you are but now that I do I can see that this was a personal thing because I am not arguing with you at all) when I say I just believe in re-incarnation..... does that make you think..... or do you just see those typed words and not really think about what it means..... i mean one of my major questions that can not be answered by scinece..... period is where did my SOUL COME FROM..... and I know i have a soul because it is aching for truth right now and I'm still open to a lot of things. And also last night when I couldn't sleep thought i wastrying to put an image on god because I just thought hey maybe this is my hank god talking to just me but that was kind of wierd and I was pretending that hank was talking to me but they only real way he could is just in my head and I did talk in my head a lot and thats why i couldn't sleep and I thought hank didn't want me to sleep but to ask questions and this whole thing has caused me to lose 15 pounds and still not want to eat or something ( I am on some sort of spiritual fasting or whatever because I am just tring to eat enought to survive or something because I know I could just force myself not to eat because I know my stomach just wants anything but I need to eat MCDONALDS or anything I just want to eat right now ) but lol ya I should be at school but this is relaxing for me and I also need to go help my friends win a bball game tonight and seriously right now in my life thats all that matters.... but if we do lose.... so be it because you make your own luck to an extent and I believe we will beat the $h*t out of our openent ..... but just by playing with every fiber of your being and not getting into a physical fight. Oh and my mom was trying to read the bible to make me fall asleep and she just started reading it in random spots and it all applied to my life and I could see it..... that is why I believe (even though I haven't even read the bible for my own) that it is the "living word" because even if you don't consider yourself any religion it can still apply to your life.... lol she read something about how birds don't question that they need to eat worms.... but that almost is saying still to me don't question the gift I have given you and thats why i was scared that some higher power was trying to open my eyes .... and I didn't want to fail any test and like die or something ..... haha but I couldn't even dress myself because I thought I was putting my clothes on wrong... I mean I seriously was going insane I think trying to justify so many things in my head at once

AND I JUST NEED TO CHILLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL ..... that why you should listen to enya ....Only time.. if you have questions that song might touch you like it did for me

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I can seriously say right now that FCA is very counter-productive .... that could just call it F and people would be like what the hell does that stand for? But i would repyl with Fellowship.... and that is seriously what is a major reason to go to different "buildings" to worship in.... I mean if I flew over to some whacko terrisit harboring country and went into their mosque or what ever and just started "speaking in tongues" ( I don't believe that because you don't have to just make noises that you don't know just to get your message across that you're trying to pray for something.) But if i did go there they wouldn't know me and therefore probably would judge me even though I was worshipping maybe to the same god but in a different way and they might feel the need to blow my brains out but hey..... the 9/11 highjackers could have just talked to me before and I would have been open to anything except the attack they made because I do believe the only reason they did that was to prove you could attack america in a very serious manner and I also believe that is why we are in Iraq right now to protect ourselves ..... and I feel that the lives of some of those soldiers over there were not for nothing because they believe the same why I do but they are willing to pack up and put there life in danger just for a belief that america is a good place?? I mean thats more noble than just going to war for a god....and I think the greeks had so many gods because they also were trying not to pin all huiman emotions onto one supreme being because there were so many things that they could not explain they had to have a god for it all........ and it does make a little sense so they just believed it and is that wrong? nobody knows .....

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Feels different to think deeply, doesn't it? Razz

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ya squirrel (lol i never really knew who you are but now that I do I can see that this was a personal thing because I am not arguing with you at all)

Yeah, there's no need to argue. That's more counter-productive than you view FCA.

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i mean one of my major questions that can not be answered by scinece..... period is where did my SOUL COME FROM..... and I know i have a soul because it is aching for truth right now and I'm still open to a lot of things.

Oh man, find a Bible and read Psalms 42. It's a very short passage and believe me, it talks about exactly what you're going through right now-- your "soul aching for truth", as you put it. I'm sure you'll find it interesting no matter what your opinion on it is.

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And also last night when I couldn't sleep thought i wastrying to put an image on god because I just thought hey maybe this is my hank god talking to just me but that was kind of wierd and I was pretending that hank was talking to me but they only real way he could is just in my head and I did talk in my head a lot and thats why i couldn't sleep and I thought hank didn't want me to sleep but to ask questions

There is definitely much to learn from silence. Read this-- http://www.stmarkspresbyterian.org/stmarks/sermons/28mar04.htm

It's a sermon, so you don't have to take it at face value, but consider the example given about Elijah and how God spoke through the "stillness", or the silence.

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and this whole thing has caused me to lose 15 pounds and still not want to eat or something ( I am on some sort of spiritual fasting or whatever because I am just tring to eat enought to survive or something because I know I could just force myself not to eat because I know my stomach just wants anything but I need to eat MCDONALDS or anything I just want to eat right now )

Yeah, you were pretty hungry when we went out for wings the other night. You were even a pig in front of Jaymee. Wink

But seriously, I think you're more hungry for answers than food right now, which is part of the reason why you're like this. Again, read Psalms 42 about it (especially verse 3 for this particular issue).

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but lol ya I should be at school but this is relaxing for me and I also need to go help my friends win a bball game tonight and seriously right now in my life thats all that matters.... but if we do lose.... so be it because you make your own luck to an extent and I believe we will beat the $h*t out of our openent ..... but just by playing with every fiber of your being and not getting into a physical fight.

Well good luck. Give it your all and you can overcome crappy coaching. Wink

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Oh and my mom was trying to read the bible to make me fall asleep and she just started reading it in random spots and it all applied to my life and I could see it..... that is why I believe (even though I haven't even read the bible for my own) that it is the "living word" because even if you don't consider yourself any religion it can still apply to your life

Exactly. Again, you don't have to be a part of any "organized religion" to have beliefs similar to their's. I mean, come on, I consider myself a Christian only because I don't feel like finding another name for myself-- it's definitely not because I want to be known as having the same beliefs as, say, some of those girls-- you know who I'm talking about.

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lol she read something about how birds don't question that they need to eat worms.... but that almost is saying still to me don't question the gift I have given you and thats why i was scared that some higher power was trying to open my eyes .... and I didn't want to fail any test and like die or something........haha but I couldn't even dress myself because I thought I was putting my clothes on wrong... I mean I seriously was going insane I think trying to justify so many things in my head at once

AND I JUST NEED TO CHILLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL ..... that why you should listen to enya ....Only time.. if you have questions that song might touch you like it did for me

Well take it slow, listen to some more Enya, and get ready for your game tonight. And if you need some other music to listen to, there's always the Beatles. Wink

And Rod Stewart's Forever Young, too.

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I can seriously say right now that FCA is very counter-productive .... that could just call it F and people would be like what the hell does that stand for? But i would repyl with Fellowship.... and that is seriously what is a major reason to go to different "buildings" to worship in....

Yeah, in this day and age "consumer Christianity" is a problem. In other words, Christianity in modern America tends to be easy, upbeat, convenient, and compatible. People feel little guilt and think they can get away with just mingling with friends and basically pretending to be Christians, because they don't think it requires self-sacrifice, discipline, humility, an otherworldly outlook, a zeal for souls, a fear as well as love of God, if they really felt it truly and deeply in their hearts, then they wouldn't act like they are.

Jesus talks about them in Revelation: "I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked." (Rev. 3:15-17)

Basically he's talking about those who go to church-- which means they don't necessarily reject God, so there not "cold"-- but don't actually "practice what they preach", so they're not "hot" either. Instead they're lukewarm, and Jesus spues them out of his mouth. Remind you of anyone? *cough* FCA people *cough* Wink

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and I feel that the lives of some of those soldiers over there were not for nothing because they believe the same why I do but they are willing to pack up and put there life in danger just for a belief that america is a good place?? I mean thats more noble than just going to war for a god

Yes, it's very noble. And it's why our freedom (as physical individuals, I should probably clarify, considering the nature of most of this discussion) shouldn't be taken for granted.

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Yeah, in this day and age "consumer Christianity" is a problem. In other words, Christianity in modern America tends to be easy, upbeat, convenient, and compatible. People feel little guilt and think they can get away with just mingling with friends and basically pretending to be Christians, because they don't think it requires self-sacrifice, discipline, humility, an otherworldly outlook, a zeal for souls, a fear as well as love of God, if they really felt it truly and deeply in their hearts, then they wouldn't act like they are.

I see this all the time...it makes me want to puke! Mad

Enya is very relaxing...I can't stop listening. When I come home after a bunch of crap(school, sports, etc) it's nice to sit, put in Enya, and think about my life. I think everyone should do this. Very Happy

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lol wow only two replies.... what a strange occurance lol Twisted Evil

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I agree with you Thunder and Rex it is very frustrating knowing that people are taking advantage of the wonderful gift God gave us. How they think they can sin because they are already forgiven and I think it is very disrespectful to God. Im not saying im perfect by any means because im not. But we are supposed to try and live all for Christ. And anyways we are supposed to carry out our relationship with God and live all for him not just when it is conveniant.

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vol_fan06 wrote:

I agree with you Thunder and Rex it is very frustrating knowing that people are taking advantage of the wonderful gift God gave us. How they think they can sin because they are already forgiven and I think it is very disrespectful to God. Im not saying im perfect by any means because im not. But we are supposed to try and live all for Christ. And anyways we are supposed to carry out our relationship with God and live all for him not just when it is conveniant.

why would you want to waste your life trying to "live for christ"..... try living for yourself and others... at least they are real

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