Do (non-human) primates have the idea of numbers?

Re: Do (non-human) primates have the idea of numbers?
satt

Do not human primates have ideas?

A human may be educated to get ideas. For this to be possible, a human must have the nature of understanding and manipulating ideas in the first place.

Through experience, humans get numbers.
"Sheep there" and "sheep here" are grouped to be equivalent to a group consisting of "this stone" and "that stone" and the idea of the number "two" is here.
This ability of grouping and abstracting a property of the group must be the nature engraved in humans.
My question is to what extent other primates have this ability..

Re: Do (non-human) primates have the idea of numbers?


I would guess that non-human primates do have some comprehension of numeric quantity.

Years ago, I read that Crows could count to 8. They tested this by putting hunters with guns into (and out of) a hunting blind which they knew Crows were watching.

Apparently, the crows knew when there was a hunter in the blind as long as the numbers didn't exceed 8 individuals. For example, putting 4 hunters into the blind, adding 2, then removing 5 still caused the Crows to stay away. They tried a lot of combinations over several days, and determined that the Crows knew when somone was in the blind unless they started putting more than 8 people total in the blind at one time. Once this happened, the crows seemed to lose count, and didn't know if there was a hunter in the blind or not.

I'm guessing that at least some non-human primates have a similar capacity, although Corvids are considered one of the smartest animals on the planet.

Counting times of the same acts might not correspond to the idea of numbers as a property of a collection of groups ("this sheep, that sheep" ..two). However counting, it it can be called counting, itself may lead a way to find numerical property of a collection of groups.
Counting itself is a behavior, while a property of a collection of certain groups is an idea.

Anyhow, crows are said to be very smart birds..

I don't know about numbers. I know that gorillas can be taught to understand them. That has been done. Wether it can learn on it's own I don't know.

It has also been discovered that gorillas have feelings. Love for instance. A gorilla named Amy who had been taught human sign language (over 1000 signs) expressed sorrow and sympathy when one of the keepers lost her child (human). The gorilla expressed that it knew the feeling because it had experienced it.

What's more, this gorilla also showed enough understanding of the signlanguage to utilize the signs in new combos to convey her own genuine requests and questions.
She knew the word "bracelet", and she knew the word "finger". She didn't know "ring", but when she saw a human wearing one she asked about the "fingerbracelet"...

In my opinion this goes way beyond numbers.

Is it clear that the gorillas can make an abstraction from grouping, that is, they can grasp the idea of the abstract number? As I mentioned earlier, iteration of a behavior is not the same thing as the abstract grasp of the number.

Satt_fs, can you say that humans, simply because they are humans, have an abstract grasp of the number? Your point that there is no connection between the use of it and the abstract understanding of it (if I understand correctly) is good, but this is not to say that all humans have this abstract understanding. Many people have little or no ability for abstract reasoning, simply because the ability has never been cultivated...

"[N]ever been cultivated.."
But it could be said, as a species humans have the capacity of developping abstract ideas, by their (or our) own ability. It could be said, then, a human refind the idea, which was already there before the person has find again.

It could. But if so, you cannot deny that other animals also might have this ability. The thing is, that even though all practically all humans can operate a computer, not all humans can make one. The same with great ideas and theories. Anyone can take them into their mouth and recite them. Not everyone can think them up.

So what's the difference between a human that knows just what it's been taught and a monkey who knows just what he has been taught?

Capacity for abstract reasoning is not a given ability. It's like playing an instrument. All children can learn, but only the ones that do are able to play eventually.

No, I do not deny other animals' abilities categorically. Rather I would like to know them, which is the aim of this thread.
Thank you for your reply, Cyracuz.

That makes two of us. I was very impressed the first time I witnessed my dog's ability to solve problems. This particular problem was with a stick:

My dog loves to carry huge sticks when we go for a walk. Near here there is a bridge, and the first time my dog tried to carry a stick over the bridge it was too big. It stopped on each side on the railings of the bridge. I looked at the dog. Saw it's eyes move from railing to railing. Then it backed up a few paces and twisted it's head so that the stick was carried along the side of its body. Then it walked over. The dog understood that it couldn't pass because the passage was too narrow.

It makes me think of the childs game,that cube where you're fitting the right figure into the right hole...

It was a very impressive story.
It could be said that (smart) dogs have some kind of abstract idea of the space (3D or 4D)?

I doubt that house cats can do that.
(BTW, I love cats as well as dogs. And I do not mention wild cats.)

I have a story about a cat as well. My friend has one, and this one loves to lay on your lap and purr. When your sitting there it approaches you, seeking eyecontact. If you establish eyecontact with it the cat will see it as a green light and jump up on your lap. If you look away it will move to someone else. The only way I can understand this is that the cat is asking permission. I experienced an intelligent "conversation" with a cat. This is not a one time incident. It happened many times, and to many people who also comented on it.