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Do (non-human) primates have religion?

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I think we decided in the other thread that (non-human) primates did indeed have culture. Let's move further along that train of thought here - do they have religion?

Furthermore, is religion a) detrimental or b) functional?

If you think that primates do not have religion, and that religion is fundamentally destrimental, how does religion fit into a process of cultural evolution? If functional, what purpose does it serve to the (non-human) primates?

If you think that only human beings have religion, why do you think so?

Now, DISCUSS.

Edit: Changed "primates" to "non-human primates".

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Re: Do primates have religion?

rufio wrote:

If you think that primates do not have religion, and that religion is fundamentally destrimental, how does religion fit into a process of cultural evolution? If functional, what purpose does it serve to the primates?

If you think that only human beings have religion, why do you think so?

Perhaps there is something left out here from the other thread you mention but by themselves, the choices of these two positions seem a bit silly.

Humans are primates and I've met plenty of them that hold religious views. Since that is the case there is no possibility that primates can not have religions.

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Haha, good point. The original thread was called "Do monkeys have culture?" and I wanted to be a bit more general than monkeys. I meant non-human primates. I'll change the title. Razz

Razz

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Re: Do (non-human) primates have religion?

rufio wrote:

If you think that only human beings have religion, why do you think so?

Non-Human primate culture all revolves around social interaction doesn't it? I don't know of any non-human primate activities that involve making shrines to unobserved entities, and then performing rituals to the shrine as a representation of the deity.

I just don't think that non-human primates have the mental tools necessary to conceptualize something as esoteric as a deity, and then to ritualize attention to the concept.

I suppose you should specify the definition of "religion" you want to use when asking the question.

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I think this thread is very interesting.

It is almost clear that the Neandeltals (might be included in humans) had some kind of religion.

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Well perhaps we should answer the function of religion question first. A general definition wouldn't be a bad idea either - does a religion need daily rituals, or shrines, or even a deity? For example, magic-based religions tend not to have a deity as the central focus of a religion, as judeo/christian ones have, and a lot of African religions have deities which don't interfere with the world, and thus don't function in the religion in the same way.

I started this thread because I just started an anthropology class about religion, and most anthropologists think it's pretty clear that animals do not have religion (except for a few primatologists, anyway). They also disagree about whether neanderthals had a religion.

But naturally, I wondered if they all might be wrong, as anthropologists tend to have been in the past.

If anyone happens to know a lot about particular non-western human religions, that would be interesting to bring into the thread, too.

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Neanderthals in fact had equal and larger brains than homo sapiens. They were more carnivorous than omniverous. But clearly their use of tolls and weapons plus evidence of burial of their dead distances them from apes.

http://www.ecotao.com/holism/hu_neand.htm

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Re: Do (non-human) primates have religion?
rufio

They don't have religion. They are not intelligent enough to be so stupid Smile

Smile

Smile

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rufio wrote:

Well perhaps we should answer the function of religion question first. A general definition wouldn't be a bad idea either - does a religion need daily rituals, or shrines, or even a deity? For example, magic-based religions tend not to have a deity as the central focus of a religion, as judeo/christian ones have, and a lot of African religions have deities which don't interfere with the world, and thus don't function in the religion in the same way.

If I try to put myself into the mind of a great ape (Orangutan for example), I can picture eating and sleeping and being very aware of the other members of the group. I would probably know their smells, their personalities and their position in the social group. I would probably also be aware of some things outside the group, like predators in the forrest and weather (storms). I might also recognize when a member of the group was lost or killed and be afraid of that, feeling a sense of loss and helplessness even if I didn't understand what had happened.

Fear of things like weather (thunder), or loss of life, are the closest things I can imagine which would be abstract concepts which might take on an indentity in my mind. And so I can see how an Orangutan might be able to have abstract concepts which might be given an identity in their minds. But I'm still not sure those identities would be focused enough, or given enough anthropomorphic (the ape equivalent of anthropomorphism) identity to warrant religious overtones.

Also, "Religion" involves some kind of ritual doesn't it? Religion itself is not the same as a deity, or the concept of deism, is it?

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Quote:

I think this thread is very interesting.

It is almost clear that the Neandeltals (might be included in humans) had some kind of religion.

Interesting point. Neandertals are humans (not modern humans) but there is a good chance that early hominoids (not humans) had a concept of a religion.

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>>Also, "Religion" involves some kind of ritual doesn't it? Religion itself is not the same as a deity, or the concept of deism, is it?

That depends on who you ask - there's a lot of people in America who consider themselves to be "religious" but never do things like go to services on a regular basis. Different kinds of rituals, I suppose - in any case, I was referring to the shrines you mentioned earlier.

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rufio wrote:

That depends on who you ask - there's a lot of people in America who consider themselves to be "religious" but never do things like go to services on a regular basis. Different kinds of rituals, I suppose - in any case, I was referring to the shrines you mentioned earlier.

In this case it could be very difficult to say whether non-human primates have religion or not because there might be no outward expression of it at all. It might be just a vague feeling in an Orangutan mind that there was something else out there. It might even be something as simple as a memory of a "father figure" or a mother who is now lost. If the memory of the individual became mixed with the feelings of awe and love and respect for that individual, then the image retained in the mind might be indistinguishable from a more supernatural deity type image. The fine line between deity and emotional association is getting pretty blurry.

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