Reply Mon 10 Jan, 2005 10:29 pm
http://ucsdnews.ucsd.edu/newsrel/science/mcquasar.asp

Discovery By UCSD Astronomers Poses A Cosmic Puzzle: Can A 'Distant' Quasar Lie Within A Nearby Galaxy?

By Kim McDonald

An international team of astronomers has discovered within the heart of a nearby spiral galaxy a quasar whose light spectrum indicates that it is billions of light years away. The finding poses a cosmic puzzle: How could a galaxy 300 million light years away contain a stellar object several billion light years away?

The team's findings, which were presented today in San Diego at the January meeting of the American Astronomical Society and which will appear in the February 10 issue of the Astrophysical Journal, raise a fundamental problem for astronomers who had long assumed that the "high redshifts" in the light spectra of quasars meant these objects were among the fastest receding objects in the universe and, therefore, billions of light years away.

"Most people have wanted to argue that quasars are right at the edge of the universe," said Geoffrey Burbidge, a professor of physics and astronomer at the University of California at San Diego's Center for Astrophysics and Space Sciences and a member of the team. "But too many of them are being found closely associated with nearby, active galaxies for this to be accidental. If this quasar is physically associated with this galaxy, it must be close by."

Astronomers generally estimate the distances to stellar objects by the speed with which they are receding from the earth. That recession velocity is calculated by measuring the amount the star's light spectra is shifted to the lower frequency, or red end, of the light spectrum. This physical phenomenon, known as the Doppler Effect, can be experienced by someone standing near train tracks when the whistle or engine sounds from a moving train becomes lower in pitch, or sound frequency, as the train travels past.


http://ucsdnews.ucsd.edu/graphics/images/2004/spiralgalaxy.new.sm.jpg
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gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Jan, 2005 10:31 pm
This is the basic thing that Halton Arp got thrown out of America for before ending up at the Max Planck Institute. It destroys the notion interpreting redshift as distance and that kills the basic foundation for the idea of the big bang.
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Adrian
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Jan, 2005 10:43 pm
Quote:
It destroys the notion interpreting redshift as distance and that kills the basic foundation for the idea of the big bang.


It does no such thing. It is one set of data that has only just been published. You can't draw any conclusions just yet.

It is an interesting development though. Thanks for posting the article Gunga.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jan, 2005 12:40 am
I'm not into astronomy or physics, but I agree with Adrian that conclusions are premature at this point. We must wait until the "experts" in the field share their ideas on what this all means.
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gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jan, 2005 12:53 am
It's not exactly like this one is out of the blue. Halton Arp has demonstrated a number of galaxy-quasar pairs which for all the world appear to be part and parcel of the same things despite enormous diffeences in distance if you assume redshift to indicate distance and, as I say, he got thrown out of American academia for it, basically denied telescope time at the major observatories, and ended up at the Max Planck Institute. This is simply the first instance I've seen of what looks like more than one or two people wanting to sign their names onto such a thing.

http://www.dragonscience.com/red/arpteaser.html
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farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jan, 2005 01:02 am
Ive aalways had a problem with the big bang. There is no centtral point of motion from which everything vectors. How about the membrane theory of contiguous and separately propogated universes and then parallel universes making up tthe dark matter.
I dont know, im only here for the free food

Have they done checks on their spectral data for the artiicle?
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gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jan, 2005 03:12 am
farmerman wrote:
Ive aalways had a problem with the big bang.


You should; the idea is idiotic on first principles. Having all the mass of the universe collapsed to a point would be the ultimate black hole. Nothing could bang its way out of that.

If I had to bet it, I'd bet that the universe was eternal, stretching backwards in time to infinity.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jan, 2005 07:07 am
well, lets not go off , we have spectra of element differeniation that seem pretty convincing, so before you start the Apostles Creed,...

You need to deveop a theory and haave it vetted and , of coure , theres always that data thing.
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gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jan, 2005 09:15 am
The "data thing" basically is that nobody was there 17 billion years ago, so my guess is as good as anybody elses.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jan, 2005 09:39 am
and Ill bet youve never seen an atom either, but I understand that they do exist.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jan, 2005 12:25 pm
Atoms and DNA exist; we didn't know that for the longest time in human history. We will understand more in the future; why jump to conclusions now?
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jan, 2005 12:27 pm
I've been reading about Antarctica, because I'll be leaving tomorrow to visit there. One of the interesting things I learned for the first time was the ability of life to live in that frozen ice. They have some kind of antifreeze that we are just beginning to understand. Much more to learn...
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jan, 2005 02:08 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
I've been reading about Antarctica, because I'll be leaving tomorrow to visit there. One of the interesting things I learned for the first time was the ability of life to live in that frozen ice. They have some kind of antifreeze that we are just beginning to understand. Much more to learn...



http://www.70south.com/news/989352796/index_html

Quote:

Lake Vostok is located almost in the center of the Antarctic. It is almost as big as Lake Ontario. Mysterious is absolutely the right word to describe this huge body of water. Last summer in the Antarctic SOAR (Support Office for Aerogeophysical Research flew 36, 4 hour missions over Lake Vostok. Every second instruments in the Twin Otter airplane measured gravitational attractions, radar readings, and 10 different measures on a magnetometer. They may have found more mysteries than they solved. [ed: details of the original story are on the Antarctic Sun.]

Probably the biggest mystery is evidence of a huge magnetic anomoly. Encompassing the Southwest corner of the lake, 65 X 46 miles there are indications that the geological structure changes beneath the lake. One quick theory is that this indicates a thinner crust in the surface of the continent. Another mystery is that ice core samples have proved that micro-organisms live 11,886 feet deep under the ice. That is over 2 miles down! If the ice core is drilled another 400 feet or so it will enter an pristine atmosphere sealed off for millions of years. Air samples can tell scientists a lot about our planets past. BTW, back to the ice core. Each year as the snow falls and melts and refreezes it forms a geological diary that scientist decode and read to tell them what was happening in the worlds atmosphere going backward in time at least 400,000 years. Back to Lake Vostok. Beneath the trapped atmosphere lies equally pristine water. Is there life there? If there is it makes one lake up and out to Europa the ice covered moon orbiting Jupiter. Don't bet against life. I think you will lose. Beneath the water is the bed of the lake. How was this huge lake formed? Sediment from the lake bed can provide the answers. And the deepest mystery (pun intended). Just what did cause that HUGE MAGNETIC ANOMALY.



Flying over the magnetic anomaly of lake Vostok pegs the needles of magnetometers. The thing which normally does that is flying over a city...
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jan, 2005 02:52 pm
gungasnake wrote:
Having all the mass of the universe collapsed to a point would be the ultimate black hole.


No it wouldn't. The Big Bang doesn't describe an expansion of matter into an existing space, it describes the expansion of space itself, and that's a huge difference between the two ideas. Black Holes are a totally different phenomena from the Big Bang.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jan, 2005 03:00 pm
Hi Farmer,

farmerman wrote:
Ive aalways had a problem with the big bang. There is no centtral point of motion from which everything vectors.


The Big Bang theory predicts that there will be no central point (in 3 dimensions) from which everything vectors, so the fact that this appears to be true supports the theory, it doesn't contradict it.

Spacetime itself is expanding, so every three dimensional point in space is the center of the expansion. This is what is predicted, and this is what we see.

You have to remember that we're talking about spacetime here, not just space. In a fourth dimensional sense, there is a real center to the universe, but it is not in a unique place, but rather a unique place/time. The center of the Universe is a when, not a where; the center of the Universe is a point in time about 13.7billion years ago.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jan, 2005 03:20 pm
rosborne, You have presented a dimension to the big bang theory that makes sense. I'm looking forward to reading more on this topic, and I hope you continue to contribute to these forums.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jan, 2005 03:32 pm
rosborne979 wrote:
gungasnake wrote:
Having all the mass of the universe collapsed to a point would be the ultimate black hole.


No it wouldn't. The Big Bang doesn't describe an expansion of matter into an existing space, it describes the expansion of space itself,...


Think real hard about the idea of space expanding. Then, try to picture a farm, and a pasture. Next picture a bull walking around in the pasture after a big meal...

http://hometown.aol.com/vesnan/BullShit.gif
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jan, 2005 03:33 pm
I mean, bullshit isn't that hard to recognize...
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jan, 2005 03:37 pm
rosborne979 wrote:


You have to remember that we're talking about spacetime here, not just space. In a fourth dimensional sense, there is a real center to the universe, but it is not in a unique place, but rather a unique place/time. The center of the Universe is a when, not a where; the center of the Universe is a point in time about 13.7billion years ago.



Once upon a time there lived a vain Emperor whose only worry in life was to dress in elegant clothes. He changed clothes almost every hour and loved to show them off to his people.

Word of the Emperor's refined habits spread over his kingdom and beyond. Two scoundrels who had heard of the Emperor's vanity decided to take advantage of it. They introduced themselves at the gates of the palace with a scheme in mind.

"We are two very good tailors and after many years of research we have invented an extraordinary method to weave a cloth so light and fine that it looks invisible. As a matter of fact it is invisible to anyone who is too stupid and incompetent to appreciate its quality."

The chief of the guards heard the scoundrel's strange story and sent for the court chamberlain. The chamberlain notified the prime minister, who ran to the Emperor and disclosed the incredible news. The Emperor's curiosity got the better of him and he decided to see the two scoundrels.

"Besides being invisible, your Highness, this cloth will be woven in colors and patterns created especially for you." The emperor gave the two men a bag of gold coins in exchange for their promise to begin working on the fabric immediately.

"Just tell us what you need to get started and we'll give it to you." The two scoundrels asked for a loom, silk, gold thread and then pretended to begin working. The Emperor thought he had spent his money quite well: in addition to getting a new extraordinary suit, he would discover which of his subjects were ignorant and incompetent. A few days later, he called the old and wise prime minister, who was considered by everyone as a man with common sense.

"Go and see how the work is proceeding," the Emperor told him, "and come back to let me know."

The prime minister was welcomed by the two scoundrels.

"We're almost finished, but we need a lot more gold thread. Here, Excellency! Admire the colors, feel the softness!" The old man bent over the loom and tried to see the fabric that was not there. He felt cold sweat on his forehead.

"I can't see anything," he thought. "If I see nothing, that means I'm stupid! Or, worse, incompetent!" If the prime minister admitted that he didn't see anything, he would be discharged from his office.

"What a marvelous fabric, he said then. "I'll certainly tell the Emperor." The two scoundrels rubbed their hands gleefully. They had almost made it. More thread was requested to finish the work.

Finally, the Emperor received the announcement that the two tailors had come to take all the measurements needed to sew his new suit.

"Come in," the Emperor ordered. Even as they bowed, the two scoundrels pretended to be holding large roll of fabric.

"Here it is your Highness, the result of our labour," the scoundrels said. "We have worked night and day but, at last, the most beautiful fabric in the world is ready for you. Look at the colors and feel how fine it is." Of course the Emperor did not see any colors and could not feel any cloth between his fingers. He panicked and felt like fainting. But luckily the throne was right behind him and he sat down. But when he realized that no one could know that he did not see the fabric, he felt better. Nobody could find out he was stupid and incompetent. And the Emperor didn't know that everybody else around him thought and did the very same thing.

The farce continued as the two scoundrels had foreseen it. Once they had taken the measurements, the two began cutting the air with scissors while sewing with their needles an invisible cloth.

"Your Highness, you'll have to take off your clothes to try on your new ones." The two scoundrels draped the new clothes on him and then held up a mirror. The Emperor was embarrassed but since none of his bystanders were, he felt relieved.

"Yes, this is a beautiful suit and it looks very good on me," the Emperor said trying to look comfortable. "You've done a fine job."

"Your Majesty," the prime minister said, "we have a request for you. The people have found out about this extraordinary fabric and they are anxious to see you in your new suit." The Emperor was doubtful showing himself naked to the people, but then he abandoned his fears. After all, no one would know about it except the ignorant and the incompetent.

"All right," he said. "I will grant the people this privilege." He summoned his carriage and the ceremonial parade was formed. A group of dignitaries walked at the very front of the procession and anxiously scrutinized the faces of the people in the street. All the people had gathered in the main square, pushing and shoving to get a better look. An applause welcomed the regal procession. Everyone wanted to know how stupid or incompetent his or her neighbor was but, as the Emperor passed, a strange murmur rose from the crowd.

Everyone said, loud enough for the others to hear: "Look at the Emperor's new clothes. They're beautiful!"

"What a marvellous train!"

"And the colors! The colors of that beautiful fabric! I have never seen anything like it in my life!" They all tried to conceal their disappointment at not being able to see the clothes, and since nobody was willing to admit his own stupidity and incompetence, they all behaved as the two scoundrels had predicted.

A child, however, who had no important job and could only see things as his eyes showed them to him, went up to the carriage.

"The Emperor is naked," he said.

"Fool!" his father reprimanded, running after him. "Don't talk nonsense!" He grabbed his child and took him away. But the boy's remark, which had been heard by the bystanders, was repeated over and over again until everyone cried:

"The boy is right! The Emperor is naked! It's true!"

The Emperor realized that the people were right but could not admit to that. He though it better to continue the procession under the illusion that anyone who couldn't see his clothes was either stupid or incompetent. And he stood stiffly on his carriage, while behind him a page held his imaginary mantle.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jan, 2005 03:47 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
rosborne, You have presented a dimension to the big bang theory that makes sense. I'm looking forward to reading more on this topic, and I hope you continue to contribute to these forums.


Thanks CI. I've been posting stuff for quite a while now and I suppose I'll be doing it for a while longer, especially if I can get the spittin' Cobra to post more of those Bull cartoons Wink

By the way, have an excellent trip to Antartica. I envy your chance to take such a trip.

Best Regards,
0 Replies
 
 

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