Reply
Thu 30 Dec, 2004 04:49 pm
My question is...if God created the earth (universe) in 7 days where do the dinosaurs fit into creation? we have scientific proof that no humans were alive at the same time as dinosaurs, and there is no way that all of the fossils and layers of sediment formed in less than 7 days (which we also have proof of) So again my question is where do dinosaurs (something prooven to exist) Fit into the biblical creation?
Not all creationists take the biblical story as a literal truth. Some that do go as far as to deny that dinosaurs ever existed (These, of course, were dreamed up by secularists and "planted". One persons proof is another's conspiracy theory.
) but Catholics, for example, are usually taught that God's preception of a "day" and ours are very different so that one of God's days could be several hundred thousand years in human terms.
There are probably creationists that don't regard the bible as anything other than a long winded novel too.
that makes sense...but even if it was 100s of thousands of years we know for a fact that the dinosaurs existed for millions of years.
(Finally, maybe a forum where I can discuss Christianity with people with some sense. Maybe... Sorry, I was on a Christian message board and got run off because I asked questions.)
Um, where was I.
I've heard several responses. One being the Genesis creation about is mythical, and the days are figurative. This presents some problems as the plants were created before the sun.
I've also heard creationists argue several ideas, the one of which being that fossils were part of creation (which I don't believe).
Another being that dinosaurs were really created and were even referenced in Job (in fact, one being discussed in Job seems to breathe fire. dragon?). Job lived to be 800+ years I think, which would put him largely before the flood. The Noahic flood killed the dinosaurs and created the fossils. Reptiles don't ever stop growing, and the thing that kept humans from aging kept reptiles from growing/living that long as well. So the theory goes, anyway. The flood did a lot of things, so the theory goes, that affect the current world and geology. With this theory, the debate turns to the legitimacy of dating the fossil record and a bunch of hoop jumping to bring in other crazy ideas.
IMHO, it doesn't really affect one's daily life as a Christian, as long as you believe God created the world. I tend to be creationist, but recognize problems with it.
Caesar wrote:that makes sense...but even if it was 100s of thousands of years we know for a fact that the dinosaurs existed for millions of years.
Not necessarily. God, being all powerful could easily have created a world in which all the evidence we see around us was just part of the creation process.
As a matter of fact, an all powerful God could have created everything we know, yesterday. And given us memories to make us think we've been around all our lives.
The pre-supposition of an all powerful being changes everything. Our very ability to understand reality is called into question when any such being is in attendence (and deities are
always in attendence).
If the characters in 'Genesis' did actually exist with the vast number of dinosaurs that we know about that literature would reflect it. We are talking about great mountains of flesh - tens of tons - in herds, some of them even the largest land carnivores ever. Adam and Eve and their descendents would have spent most of their time trying not to become T. rex manure - and those early books would have tended to emphasise that fact.
To me this pales into insigificance to the assertion that a breeding couple of every flightless bird and non-marine animal found their way to Palestine though there are both great distances and vast oceans to cross.
Mr Stillwater wrote:If the characters in 'Genesis' did actually exist with the vast number of dinosaurs that we know about that literature would reflect it. We are talking about great mountains of flesh - tens of tons - in herds, some of them even the largest land carnivores ever. Adam and Eve and their descendents would have spent most of their time trying not to become T. rex manure - and those early books would have tended to emphasise that fact.
To me this pales into insigificance to the assertion that a breeding couple of every flightless bird and non-marine animal found their way to Palestine though there are both great distances and vast oceans to cross.
All reasoning pales to insignificance when confronted with omnipotence. A God can do
anything; the position is unassailable.
Re: Queston about creation
Caesar wrote:My question is...if God created the earth (universe) in 7 days where do the dinosaurs fit into creation? we have scientific proof that no humans were alive at the same time as dinosaurs, and there is no way that all of the fossils and layers of sediment formed in less than 7 days (which we also have proof of) So again my question is where do dinosaurs (something prooven to exist) Fit into the biblical creation?
The "ordinary" scientific Orthodox Jewish explanation is that G-d's time is not the same as man's time.
There is a tape by Harold Gans that does quite a thorough job of explaining this.
You can listen to it at:
Creation and the Age of the Universe
Some maintain that EVERY word in the Bible is TRUE, LITERALLY.
These people can practice whatever rationalization contortions that they deem necessary to buttress their Dogma...
A "Born-again" friend of mine explained that the "Fossil Record" was fabricated by Ol' Scratch hisse'f, to addle and confuse those with shaky or flawed Faith!
The saintly Bishop Ussher was not beguiled!
And that includes light being bought into existence at a point only 6,000 lightyears from Earth to make it look as though it could have actually travelled millions, if not billions, of years ago from stars and galaxies that far away!
It's all in the details folks.
The best way to look at the Bible...and the stories in it...is to use the brain we have...(whether given us by nature or a god)...and guess about what the book is.
Anyone reading that book and its stories who comes away guessing that it reasonably depicts what a creator God would say and do...is both insulting any God that might actually exist and insulting the brain he/she has.
Any reasonable, open-minded reading of that book has got to elicit a guess that it is primarily a self-serving, rather fanciful history (of sorts) of the early Hebrew people...interspersed with an almost comical mythology.
Mr Stillwater wrote:And that includes light being bought into existence at a point only 6,000 lightyears from Earth to make it look as though it could have actually travelled millions, if not billions, of years ago from stars and galaxies that far away!
It's all in the details folks.
There's a theory that many creationists latch onto that shows the speed of light has not been constant over time. It is constant at any given time, but the theory goes the speed of light is slowing, producing the red shift and all that stuff. Whether this is true or not, I don't know. I do know that if you look at the speed of light measurements over the last 500 years (I realize many o the measurements a long time ago have a large margin of error), they all decrease, and many of the ones in the last 20 years or so fall outside the expected margin of error the scientists expect.
This of course proves nothing other than people will find evidence to believe what they want. It's easier than having faith.
Texodore wrote:Mr Stillwater wrote:And that includes light being bought into existence at a point only 6,000 lightyears from Earth to make it look as though it could have actually travelled millions, if not billions, of years ago from stars and galaxies that far away!
It's all in the details folks.
There's a theory that many creationists latch onto that shows the speed of light has not been constant over time. It is constant at any given time, but the theory goes the speed of light is slowing, producing the red shift and all that stuff. Whether this is true or not, I don't know. I do know that if you look at the speed of light measurements over the last 500 years (I realize many o the measurements a long time ago have a large margin of error), they all decrease, and many of the ones in the last 20 years or so fall outside the expected margin of error the scientists expect.
This of course proves nothing other than people will find evidence to believe what they want. It's easier than having faith.
Red **** changes the "observer's" relationship to time, not speed or space.
The theory being that the closer one gets to the speed of light, the slower time actually passes.
Which, in theory, merely means that at the speed of light, or "faster," the passage of time changes.
G-d's time is not man's time.
And, how interesting - as I read my morning Bleat:
Quote:What am I supposed to say? "We don't know, because our brains really aren't capable of getting that part, anymore than Jasper can understand how cars work; it's enough for him to know that they move. Of course, this could all be an echo of some ancient coping mechanism that ascribed the inexpicable manifestations of natural forces to a patriarchal, interventionist superbeing who demanded slavish obedience from the brutish, mewling meatbags he had created, and smote them when the mood took him. That's what some would say. That's too easy, by my lights. Either one requires faith; it depends what you want to have faith in.
James Lileks - The Bleat
Magus wrote: A "Born-again" friend of mine explained that the "Fossil Record" was fabricated by Ol' Scratch hisse'f, to addle and confuse those with shaky or flawed Faith!
Yeh, my southern baptist cousins told me the same thing. And they did it with a straight face and a gaze of warning for any who would doubt it.
There are several options out there:
- God's "day" is different from ours.
- It took literally 7 of our day, but all creatures lived for hundreds of years, producing dinosaurs from ordinary reptiles (since reptiles keep growing until they die).
Perhaps God has a great sense of humor and placed things in the earth for us to find.
Perhaps God gave evolution a shove with the big bang and a few more nudges with macro evolution to create different species.
Perhaps science will come up with new measurement methods that turn today's theories on their ears.
A truly omnipotent God is beyond our understanding but we seek to explain Himand his works in terms we can understand.
Pick whatever you like - the real question is - Do you believe God created the world or that it just happened on its own? Are the details of how the events unfolded, perhaps billions of years ago, terribly important to your faith, or lack thereof?
Idaho wrote:A truly omnipotent God is beyond our understanding but we seek to explain Himand his works in terms we can understand.
Pick whatever you like - the real question is - Do you believe God created the world or that it just happened on its own?
Yeh, this was my point as well. If you believe in an omnipotent being, then trying to understand the details is just a waste of time because you already believe that anything is possible, and that we cannot comletely understand the mind of God, so why sweat the small stuff after a start like that?
Frank Apisa wrote:Any reasonable, open-minded reading of that book has got to elicit a guess that it is primarily a self-serving, rather fanciful history (of sorts) of the early Hebrew people...interspersed with an almost comical mythology.
No it's not. It's all true. God is all powerful and works in mysterious ways. We don't have to make sense of it, it just
is that way.
(Hi Frank, how's it going? Haven't spoken to you in a loooong time.
How's Jersey? Did I ever mention that I used to live in Holmdel, about 45mins north of Asbury Park.)
rosborne979 wrote:Frank Apisa wrote:Any reasonable, open-minded reading of that book has got to elicit a guess that it is primarily a self-serving, rather fanciful history (of sorts) of the early Hebrew people...interspersed with an almost comical mythology.
No it's not. It's all true. God is all powerful and works in mysterious ways. We don't have to make sense of it, it just
is that way.
Interesting guess. I cannot help but wonder why you present it as fact.
Quote:(Hi Frank, how's it going? Haven't spoken to you in a loooong time.
How's Jersey? Did I ever mention that I used to live in Holmdel, about 45mins north of Asbury Park.)
I'm just fine, Rosborne. Thanks for asking. And I hope I find you well also.
Jersey is just fine right now. Warm enough for me to play golf today (and yesterday)...and the forcast says it will be warm enough for me to play tomorrow also.
I have a cousin who lives in Holmdel now.
Frank Apisa wrote:rosborne979 wrote:Frank Apisa wrote:Any reasonable, open-minded reading of that book has got to elicit a guess that it is primarily a self-serving, rather fanciful history (of sorts) of the early Hebrew people...interspersed with an almost comical mythology.
No it's not. It's all true. God is all powerful and works in mysterious ways. We don't have to make sense of it, it just
is that way.
Interesting guess. I cannot help but wonder why you present it as fact.
Just thought I would try things from a believer's point of view for a moment. And I know how much you love an absolute statement
Frank Apisa wrote:I'm just fine, Rosborne. Thanks for asking. And I hope I find you well also.
Jersey is just fine right now. Warm enough for me to play golf today (and yesterday)...and the forcast says it will be warm enough for me to play tomorrow also.
It's gonna go way up to 40F degrees here in NH today, so I may go out for a jog in the balmy mist.
Frank Apisa wrote:I have a cousin who lives in Holmdel now.
We used to find fossilized sharks teeth in Ramanessin Brook in Holmdel (Satan put them there to make us stray from the rightious path of course...
). If your cousin is interested in such things, it's a of fun (usually more enjoyable in the summer though).
Take care,
Stumble It!
Tweet This
Bookmark on Delicious
Share on Facebook
Share on MySpace