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Democracy is best served by strict separation of...

 
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Jan, 2005 03:19 pm
wandel writes
Quote:
I would only make a slight change in your response to wolfofheaven. I believe U.S. citizens have a wider influence than just voting. For example, both Democratic and Republican congressmen gave strong support to keeping "under God" in the pledge because they are aware of how their constituents think. Even the Supreme Court backed off from applying the establishment clause in the pledge case because it too is aware of public opinion.


But that is because they are representing us. Any politician that would presume to remove that phrase in a nation where 90+% of the citizens report that they believe in some form of higher diety would be committing political suicide. That's what representative government is all about - being responsive to the needs and wishes of the people.

The Supremes I hope are being prudent in their consideration. They know they are appointed for life and cannot be 'fired' or voted out by any means other than impeachment and Senate trial and that is unlikely to happen over a phrase in the pledge or a slogan on a coin.

I will say that public opinion properly expressed can be effective in influencing anybody, however.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Jan, 2005 03:27 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
That's what representative government is all about - being responsive to the needs and wishes of the people.



Exactly that is generally seen as the problem of Representative Government:
whether elected representatives should act merely as a relay mechanism for the views of their constituents, or whether they should act more independently, utilising their knowledge and skills to lead their constituents to a more informed decision that is better for the greater good of the community.


Representative government, btw, means that the people delegate the task of government to representatives chosen at regular elections.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Jan, 2005 03:31 pm
hyper wrote
Quote:
When you say you would remove your children to a different environment, would that be like emigrating out of America?


I wouldn't leave my child in an environment I believed to be harmful to him/her. Now mind you it would have to be something pretty extreme that I would find harmful - I don't expect to agree with everything a teacher teaches. But if I believed the teacher was teaching serious error that was harmful to the students and I could not get that corrected through talking to the teacher and/or registering a complaint, I would request a different teacher. Denied that, I would pull my kid out of the school and, if possible, place him/her in a different school or good private school. And if that wasn't feasible I would home school.

No single one of us should be able to dictate how things are going to be. But we don't have to just meekly take what is dished out either, and there are times it is important to fight back or take defensive action.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Jan, 2005 03:32 pm
So we have, in a nutshell, a nation of polularism winning out over a nation of law. Foxfyre can have the Supremes voting the popular mandate or (weird as it may seem) vote to uphold the rule of law. Perhaps we should have "American Idol" replace the court system to determine appropriate representation and interpretation of just what is meant in the constitution/bill of rights.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Jan, 2005 03:37 pm
Walter wrote
Quote:
Exactly that is generally seen as the problem of Representative Government:
whether elected representatives should act merely as a relay mechanism for the views of their constituents, or whether they should act more independently, utilising their knowledge and skills to lead their constituents to a more informed decision that is better for the greater good of the community.


Representative government, btw, means that the people delegate the task of government to representatives chosen at regular elections.


Your last paragraph I've already said. Nevertheless, the people should elect representatives who reflect their views and best interests and should hold them accountable for 'truth in advertising' when they run for office. Any politician who believes in higher taxes in most cases, for instance, isn't going to get my vote.

The republic that governs the USA was brilliantly devised. Congresspersons, elected at 2-year intervals, are expected to be more grass roots with their ear to the ground for the wishes and needs of the people. Senators elected at six-year intervals are expected to be more universal in their view and, while representing their state, would be expected to consider the needs of the whole and not the few. And the Executive branch of government is expected to consider national implications of legislation passed rather than a particular constituency. It works imperfectly, but I believe works better than any government yet devised.
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hyper426
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Jan, 2005 04:01 pm
Hey, that's like that famous Churchhill quote
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Jan, 2005 10:12 am
hyper426 wrote:
....I need to make my ENTIRE case tonight, so load away on this post, because I really find it helpful in giving me diverse perspectives


hyper,

please let us know how your class assignment went. were you able to distill any useful information from A2K?
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hyper426
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Jan, 2005 10:30 pm
Always. Actually, I am thinking about using a "melting pot" strategy for the aff., because no country is exclusively a certain religion in a Democracy (that I know of), and that protects religions from the government. And for neg., I am going to go with the morality and crime inverse relation. I need to find some statistic supporting the idea that morality (religion) promotes a more peaceful community, and therefore, a more peaceful government.

For aff., I might also just say that some things are more important, or better serve democracy than SoCS.

Any comments, or helpful ideas?
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Jan, 2005 11:53 pm
Quote:
Always. Actually, I am thinking about using a "melting pot" strategy for the aff., because no country is exclusively a certain religion in a Democracy (that I know of), and that protects religions from the government. And for neg., I am going to go with the morality and crime inverse relation. I need to find some statistic supporting the idea that morality (religion) promotes a more peaceful community, and therefore, a more peaceful government.

For aff., I might also just say that some things are more important, or better serve democracy than SoCS.

Any comments, or helpful ideas?

The concept is pretty simple as I see it. Our republic form of government allows for democracy when such democracy does not violate the rule of law which as much as possible protects the rights of both the minority and the majority. One of the inalienable rights guaranteed by the Constitution is the individuals right to believe or not believe in matters of faith. The federal government may not require or coerce any manner of religious belief or practice either by reward or effectiing consequences for what one might believe or practice so long as such belief and practice does not violate the rights of those who believe and practice differently.

Religious practice may not break the civil law. For instance, a church may not practice human sacrifice or use illegal drugs in its worship service as such is illegal for everybody.

The U.S. government has long granted certain benefits to the churches such as not requiring religious or not-for-profit charitable organizations to pay federal, state, or property taxes. Why is this a good policy? Because without exception, communities/neighborhoods where a good percentage of the population adheres to a religious faith, there is less crime, less truancy, less domestic violence, less child neglect, fewer divorces, and higher productivity. In other words, the moral/ethical values of the religious are likely to produce a safer, cleaner, more stable, more productive community than are likely to be found in areas where the religious are less present.

This does not in any way suggest that only the religious have strong moral and ethical values, nor does it suggest that the religious will not sometimes be lacking in such virtues. We are speaking in the most general terms here.

Also in this era where there is so much anti-religious, especially anti-Christian sentiment, you will find many who will argue that the Church can no longer claim to improve a community as it once did (if it ever did). The founders of the U.S. government and Constitution believed that society was better off religious, even better off Christian. Many in modern times believe this is still very much the case though there is somewhat more religious tolerance now than there was then.

The founders, however intolerant in matters of religion they were, however, were determined that the government would have absolutely no say in the religious beliefs any citizen did or did not hold and, within the larger confines of civil law, could not interfere in how s/he practiced it.

But I think orginally the lines separating church and state were very fuzzy and pourous and the more strict interpretation of separation of church and state is a modern invention and, in fact, may eventually be found to be unconstitutional.
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hyper426
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Jan, 2005 07:01 am
If it is found to be unconstitutional...I will laugh Laughing for hours, likely. Do you realize that a ruling like that would change the "basic structure" of America? But then again, I think we need to be waken roughly, and soon, before we kill ourselves.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Jan, 2005 07:54 am
There is much of America that could use some improvement there is no doubt Hyper. But isn't it wonderful to live in a country where we the people can actually choose to be better than we sometimes are? Again I say, for all our warts, wrinkles, and quirks, we Americans are pretty okay and we are still the nation of choice where people of other places most want to come. We must be doing some things right despite the fact that 90+% of Americans believe in some form of diety. That simply cannot be factored out of a government of the people, by the people, and for the people.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Jan, 2005 08:53 am
foxfyre said
Quote:
Religious practice may not break the civil law. For instance, a church may not practice human sacrifice or use illegal drugs in its worship service as such is illegal for everybody
.
Since I guess you are interested in accuracy I thought you might like to know that Peyote,(called Green Whisky by the early whites) while illegal to most US citizens since the era of 1907 was found to be legal for members of the Native American Church in 1960. That legality has been upheld by many and various courts since then. Thought you would like to know.
Dys
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Jan, 2005 09:01 am
I'm well aware of that Dys, but a special law had to be passed for the Native American people in this particular case. The beauty of the constitution is that in most cases, special dispensations for special cases can be made and we frequently see the law suspended or temporarily altered for the benefit of a particular American or group of Americans.

But try using peyote in a Methodist or Baptist church legally. It won't happen. Even in the U.S. the laws regarding the use of peyote vary from region to region.

Laws regarding peyote vary from state to state, with many states allowing "bona fide religious use" of peyote as an exception to the controlled substance laws. Arizona, Colorado, Idaho, Iowa, Kansas, Minnesota, Nevada, New Mexico, Oklahoma, Oregon, South Dakota, Texas, Wisconsin, and Wyoming all offer some limited exceptions to the peyote laws for religious use. See Peyote Foundation's State Law Page (cache)

In states such as Arizona, Colorado, Minnesota, Nevada, New Mexico, Oregon, and Utah, peyote may be used by any bonafide relgious organization. In Idaho, Iowa, Kansas, Oklahoma, South Dakota, and Wisconsin, use of peyote is only protected within Native American Church ceremonies. In Kansas, Texas, and Wyoming use is only protected for members of the NAC, and Idaho and Texas require some "Native American Heritage" in order to be exempt.

The Utah Supreme Court ruled that peyote use in "bona fide" religious ceremonies, regardless of the race of the participants, is protected under Utah and Federal Law in Utah. The court wrote: "On its face, the exemption applies to members of the Native American Church, without regard to tribal membership. The bona fide religious use of peyote cannot serve as the basis for prosecuting members of the Native American Church under state law." See: Salt Lake Tribune, June 23 2004, Utah State Supreme Court Decision

Therefore peyote is legal in these cases; illegal everywhere else.

It is illegal to give alcohol to minors too, but the churches can legally give a sip of communion wine to under-age communicants too. But it would be entirely illegal for the same church to give kids a cup of spiked punch at the celebration following.

All things in perspective.
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hyper426
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Jan, 2005 09:21 am
Do you have to have a certain percentage of indian ancestery to be able to use the drug?
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Jan, 2005 09:26 am
Fyred-up, I am making no statement as to the "rightness" or wrongness" of native americans or members of the native american church to use peyote. I am only offering that "the rule of law" is not equally applied to all citizens of the US and that inequality is based on relgious grounds. On that basis (exemption from current legal processes for religious reasons) why could not the Mormon church apply the same legal reasoning for the practice of polygamy? Well, the bottom line is that the US courts have and continue to unequally apply the rule of law with religious bias. Interesting point don't you think?
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Jan, 2005 09:27 am
I think you have to qualify as Native American and that requires a pretty small percentage in the U.S. Mind you the drug is ONLY legal for use in bonafide religious services and those generally happen on Indian reservations. Most of the 'citified' Native Americans go to Catholic or protestant churches with the anglos, Hispanics, et al and these would not be able to use the drug in their religious practices.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Jan, 2005 09:29 am
hyper426 wrote:
Do you have to have a certain percentage of indian ancestery to be able to use the drug?

NO, according to the court decisions that I am aware of the only requirement is that one must be a member of "the native american church" and anyone may legally become a member.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Jan, 2005 09:29 am
And Dys, I think the congressional and state legislatures prudent in recognizing the cultural history and relatively innocuous consequences for using peyote in Native American religious services. The polygamy question has come up and has been determined to be less innocuous and therefore illegal, even by the State of Utah that was founded for the specific purpose of providing religious freedom for the Mormons who were being denied that elsewhere.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Jan, 2005 09:31 am
I do agree anyone attending a Native American church using peyote in the service would probably not be questioned as to his/her racial heritage or 'intent' in attending the service. This is such a narrow application of the law, however, that it is unlikely to become much of an issue anywhere.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Jan, 2005 09:33 am
And no, I don't think the U.S. constitution and/or Utah law protects ONLY the Mormons in Utah.
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