POSSIBLE EVIDENCE THAT H.(??) LIVED IN CALIFORNIA 130,000 ybp

@blatham,

actually the shroud had a second shot for c 14, when it turned out tha the original sample included some repairs that were done sometime during the renaissance. It was an area where a burn wqs repaired with fresh linen string.

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@farmerman,

I recall people arguing that the first C14 test was flawed because of alleged damage/repairs in the area that was tested. But I thought that permission for a second C14 test was denied.

That TV show that I saw made a very compelling case that the shroud is the world's first photograph (or more precisely, the world's first negative).

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@Foofie,

Quote Foofie:

Quote:

Something might be wrong with this analogy, if one values live humans, over dead artifacts?

It is a universal human value to honor the deceased of your group. The family is the most affected, but the community also steps in-that's why most funerals are open to the public.

Oralloy argued on the basis that scientific knowledge entitles researchers to ignore time-honored standards of decency. Killing someone to obtain scientific knowledge in an experiment is worse than robbing the graves of a thoroughly conquered foe (who also lost their land and 90% of their people in the hostilities), but the principle remains the same-human rights are more important than the pursuit of scientific knowledge.

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@Blickers,

Blickers wrote:

It is a universal human value to honor the deceased of your group. The family is the most affected, but the community also steps in-that's why most funerals are open to the public.

That applies to current and recent members of your group, not to remains from thousands of years ago, some of which may not even have been members of the group.

Blickers wrote:

Oralloy argued on the basis that scientific knowledge entitles researchers to ignore time-honored standards of decency.

No. I pointed out the fact that no standards of decency are violated by the scientific study of remains from thousands of years ago.

Blickers wrote:

Killing someone to obtain scientific knowledge in an experiment is worse than robbing the graves of a thoroughly conquered foe (who also lost their land and 90% of their people in the hostilities), but the principle remains the same-human rights are more important than the pursuit of scientific knowledge.

No human rights are violated by the study of remains from thousands of years ago.

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@Blickers,

This seems to boil down to whether someone will argue that artifqcts of past ages do not deserve and respect. I dont think it really our business because we are not the affected population.
Were one of my medieval ancestors from Ukraine or Poland to be disinterred qnd used for some"phrenology" study , the merits of which arent determined, nor critical, I think Id gripe about it.

The fact is that many of the Amerind tribes retain an animist spirituality and, after 3 centuries of over-patronizing relations with tribes, they are rediscovering their identities with passion and, were we to look at NAGPRA, there are sections which talk about the negotiation for anthropological data before reburial of the remains

Besides .. I think that the Kennewick man has been studied to death for any critical scientific data . I see that, due to the Owlsley study, wed gone back and made believe that phrenology ws still a valid technique rather than the pseudoscience it really is. It turned out that the tribes closest to the Kennewick skulls location WERE really interested in establishing via DNA that the skull was Native American.

The resultant 680 page report is probably available on some U library line and our friend can buy it as a Kindle download for 9 bucks.
I think what its covered is state of the art as of 2015, with some really tricky isotope dating techniques and populational Y chromosome haplogroup statistics.

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@farmerman,

farmerman wrote:

This seems to boil down to whether someone will argue that artifqcts of past ages do not deserve and respect.

How does preservation and scientific study equate to disrespect?

farmerman wrote:

I dont think it really our business because we are not the affected population.

All humans have an interest in learning about human origins.

farmerman wrote:

Were one of my medieval ancestors from Ukraine or Poland to be disinterred qnd used for some"phrenology" study , the merits of which arent determined, nor critical, I think Id gripe about it.

The merits of scientific study are quite clear. And these bones were considerably older than medieval.

farmerman wrote:

were we to look at NAGPRA, there are sections which talk about the negotiation for anthropological data before reburial of the remains

So how come the scientists had to fight tooth and nail in court in order to get the Kennewick remains studied?

farmerman wrote:

Besides .. I think that the Kennewick man has been studied to death for any critical scientific data.

Only because the scientists were lucky enough to win their court case.

And scientific techniques advance all the time. We've lost all that we could have gained from future more advanced studies.

farmerman wrote:

It turned out that the tribes closest to the Kennewick skulls location WERE really interested in establishing via DNA that the skull was Native American.

It may have been in their interests to do so. But they were the ones who nearly prevented it from happening.

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@oralloy,

Quote:

So how come the scientists had to fight tooth and nail in court

I think youve got some alternative facts again

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@farmerman,

Wrong on both counts. I am completely correct now. And I was completely correct before.

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@oralloy,

mostly wrong but youre never in doubt.

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@farmerman,

I defy you to point out a single fact that I've ever been wrong about.

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@oralloy,

1. "Tooth and nail" cmon you make it sound like a barroom fight. there were actual discussion dinners over which study programs were agreed upon
2. SCientists "led the way". (ACtually some of the first group of scientists , james Owsley to be exact, were parts of the problems at the identification phase. Owsley made it sound rather disrespectully that the Tribes were more ignorant about the science of associations of populations.Even after clean DNA samples were repeated by several organizations (U Denmark, Planck Institute), Owsley INSISTED that the skull was European (he was one of these types who makes up his mind before facts are even in).
3 Prevents us learning more as "methods improve"-Weve got repea tability and besides, the Coleville res did not forbid any future inspections .
The only issue is any haplogroup data incorrect or are any yet to be determined? (For that theyve made alloquots of preserved DNA sequences with epigenetic frags and STR (short tandem repeat alleles)

1 Reply

@farmerman,

farmerman wrote:

1. "Tooth and nail" cmon you make it sound like a barroom fight. there were actual discussion dinners over which study programs were agreed upon

It took a bitter court fight before the scientists were allowed to do their science.

Many times over the years the government was on the verge of destroying the remains before any science could be done at all.

farmerman wrote:

2. SCientists "led the way".

That does not sound like any of my statements.

farmerman wrote:

(ACtually some of the first group of scientists , james Owsley to be exact, were parts of the problems at the identification phase. Owsley made it sound rather disrespectully that the Tribes were more ignorant about the science of associations of populations.

Maybe he was referring to that Native American guy who insisted that there was no need for science because we already have religious mythology.

farmerman wrote:

Even after clean DNA samples were repeated by several organizations (U Denmark, Planck Institute), Owsley INSISTED that the skull was European (he was one of these types who makes up his mind before facts are even in).

How is that relevant to anything?

farmerman wrote:

3 Prevents us learning more as "methods improve"-Weve got repea tability and besides, the Coleville res did not forbid any future inspections.

The remains have been buried. It is pretty clear that they will never be retrieved for more study even after new scientific techniques are invented.

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@oralloy,

I dont think you have any idea how shitty the original "Science" even was. I can understnd why the tribes were pissed at Interior. We were right in the middle of the first "War on science" era.
So letting these phrenology clowns even have samples was the real desecration.

HAd NPS shown initial respect and not tried to be so damned patronizing with the Native american reps, the court cases could have been avoided I honestly believe.

AS far as "lost to science" Im kind of smiling at that. Its fortunate that a wee bit of real science came on board during the whole kerfuffle.
I understand completely the NA's lack of "trust" . They already were reacting to the 2004 "European aspects" determination of the skull, which was a total bs extraction drawn from two guys asses.

1 Reply

@farmerman,

farmerman wrote:

I dont think you have any idea how shitty the original "Science" even was.

True. I don't.

Does it matter?

If the original science was bad, by all means improve on it with good science. But the Native Americans and the government were fighting to have no science done at all.

farmerman wrote:

HAd NPS shown initial respect and not tried to be so damned patronizing with the Native american reps, the court cases could have been avoided I honestly believe.

The Native Americans were pretty set on denying these remains to science. And the government was pretty set on helping them do it.

farmerman wrote:

AS far as "lost to science" Im kind of smiling at that. Its fortunate that a wee bit of real science came on board during the whole kerfuffle.

Fortunate indeed. Had the court case gone the wrong way, we'd never had gotten what science we did eventually get.

farmerman wrote:

I understand completely the NA's lack of "trust" . They already were reacting to the 2004 "European aspects" determination of the skull, which was a total bs extraction drawn from two guys asses.

People who try to destroy scientific data relating to their ancestry don't have much cause to complain if, in the absence of said scientific data, they end up written out of history.

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@oralloy,

Quote oralloy:

Quote:

No human rights are violated by the study of remains from thousands of years ago.

You're wrong., if these are the Native Americans' ancestors. And even if the remains are not the direct ancestors of the present Natives Americans in the area, considering the entire Native population was reduced by 90% by the Western settlers, some Native group should be empowered to represent the human whose remains these are.

1 Reply

@oralloy,

Quote:

Does it matter?

If the original science was bad, by all means improve on it with good science. But the Native Americans and the government were fighting to have no science done at all

Iwould suggest that when you fill out your organ donor card , please consider donating your empathy bone, because apparently its never been used.

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@Blickers,

Blickers wrote:

You're wrong., if these are the Native Americans' ancestors.

How is it a violation for scientists to study remains from thousands of years ago?

Blickers wrote:

And even if the remains are not the direct ancestors of the present Natives Americans in the area, considering the entire Native population was reduced by 90% by the Western settlers, some Native group should be empowered to represent the human whose remains these are.

So now the Native Americans want to destroy scientific data for non-Native remains too?

Like I said, scientists really need to set up an underground network to start hiding ancient remains from Native/government knowledge.

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@oralloy,

Quote oralloy:

Quote:

How is it a violation for scientists to study remains from thousands of years ago?

To tear apart one's ancestors' remains without the permission of the present day descendants is an enormous violation. Coupled with the 90% eradication of all the Native American population, it amounts to an ongoing genocide.

Quote oralloy:

Quote:

So now the Native Americans want to destroy scientific data for non-Native remains too?

The bones were thousands of years old, therefore Native American. The rights of pre-Columbian people should be represented by present day members of pre-Columbian tribes.

1 Reply

@oralloy,

oralloy wrote:

Like I said, scientists really need to set up an underground network to start hiding ancient remains from Native/government knowledge.

well you've got a piece of that right

there is an underground railroad to protect American scientific research from the Trump government. they started saving things (at the latest) summer of 2016 when Trump became potential POTUS. good planning on the scientists' parts

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@Blickers,

Blickers wrote:

To tear apart one's ancestors' remains without the permission of the present day descendants is an enormous violation.

These remains are thousands of years old. They have little connection with anyone living today.

And the scientists are not treating these remains with disrespect when they study them.

Blickers wrote:

Coupled with the 90% eradication of all the Native American population, it amounts to an ongoing genocide.

Nonsense. Scientific study of remains from thousands of years ago is not genocide.

Blickers wrote:

The bones were thousands of years old, therefore Native American.

Being old doesn't mean they were Native American. It is certainly a likely possibility, but there are other possibilities too. Only accurate scientific study can tell us who the remains were.

Blickers wrote:

The rights of pre-Columbian people should be represented by present day members of pre-Columbian tribes.

Not if those pre-Columbian people were Europeans.

1 Reply

POSSIBLE EVIDENCE THAT H.(??) LIVED IN CALIFORNIA 130,000 ybp

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