POSSIBLE EVIDENCE THAT H.(??) LIVED IN CALIFORNIA 130,000 ybp

who says humans dont pee where they sleep?

A few observations: If humans came here over a Beringia land bridge, the archaeological evidence would be submerged, and probably have been destroyed by the return of the ocean. If humans were here 130,000 ybp, where the hell did they come from? Genetic studies and finds by Russian archaeoltgists seem to establish the arrival of humans in Siberia no earlier than 45,000 ybp. If there were h.n. or h.s.i. here that long ago, what the hell happened to them. There is (so far) zero archaeological evidence for them between this find and the Clovis culture, or even the evidence archaeologists in South America are saying they have for human occupation 14,000 to 14,500 ybp. I believe I am correct in there is zero genetic evidence for such ancestors in the Amerindian genome.

Questions, questions, questions.

Good questions. I would like to know those answers too.

[quoteIve always been a fan of littoral zone encampments][/quote]
So underwater then. Do you think it's possible to recover any useful information from an underwater site? I mean, I know the artifacts might be intact but would their context be preserved? If they weren't organic how could they be dated?

we can actually do c14 on seashells. Say they find a shell midden underwater.. Its probably not going to be easy but Ive seen archeology maps from the gulf of maine where theyve pinpointed artifacts and the mere density of stuff dredged up in one at=rea makes it a candidate for rov scanning and later dive expeditions. But your right that dwellings would probably be gone>MAYBE LIDAR Scans could show rings of stones that acted as walls or surrounds

yep, that is problem 1, where the hell did these guys come from and by what routes ?
Problem 2 is something Im following up is the dating technique. Its a disequilibrium method that measures intermediate daughter products of U and Th which need careful calibration because you are merely measuring small amounts of other isotopes of the same elements . ALSo, I believe this method (or actually a bunch of methods) deals with that ole bugaboo Helium 4. as the ultimate floor sweeping isotope HMMMM.
They are doing and redoing system methods and cleanups to limit error , so the reason the whole damn thing took over 25 years from the dates of discovery to the NATURE article was mostly because the USGS spent all that time really worrying the crap out of these samples in the lab.

.
I saw that some archaeologists are still putzing around with the fact that the only stone "tools" found at the site were those rounded rocks.

Bone of contention:

When I get down and dirty and suck on the bone ... I usually do it as if my very marrow depended upon it, then I chuck the empty stick away.

Why is the bone that appears to be cracked right through not snacked upon? Finish your dinner young Hom think of the starving Denisovians. I'm not hungry. Anyway I'm cold , why haven't you invented fire yet.

My mother.

Quote Setanta:
Not sure about Russia, but Peking Man and Java Man, both Homo Erectus and therefore both human, establish humans in Asia well before 130,000 years ago. The 45,000 year old or 65,000 year old limits only apply to Homo Sapiens.


If it was Homo Erectus, there is a good chance that they could not produce fertile offspring with Homo Sapiens who came over from Berengia 14,000 years ago or whenever they did. It is conceivable that they never ran into the Homo Sapiens who became Native Americans-possibly they died out long before the Native American ancestors ever got there. Or maybe they were just killed off easily by the more advanced Native Americans whenever they arrived.

I think thats what Set was getting at. Wed have to push back this possible "migration event via a "land bridge" back into H. e. times. Its possible and we are only speculating via similar migrations "out of Africa"
One of the realities of the 130K date is that it just precedes the Sangamonian "interglacial" period which , by its classical definitions via pollen and marine Oxygen isotopes didnt begin until about 125 kybp.

That would mean that the Illinoian glaciation period was just ending but perhaps the seaa levels had not yet risn (the Sngamon ws a real tropical "Climate change" peiod, here Palm trees and tropical pollens ere found in bogs as far north as Massachussets.

You can look up the estaablished time periods that would frame this discovery site
SANGAMONIAN INTERGLACIAL -established based on soil cores from Sangamon County Illinois
MARINE ISOTOPE ZONE 5(e) (Oxygen isotopes show variable ratios of O16/O18 from cores taken in marine sediments) Sort of established the warmth level of the whole continent v the planet
POLLEN ZONE E (4)--bbasd upon soil pollen levels established from cores taken in Amersfoort , Netherlands

The boundaries of these time zones, are pretty well established, so its necessary that the isotope samples collected at the Cerutti site in Calif. be carefully established.

Im not critiquing it Im just letting yall know that theres not just some "arm waving" going on in this science. Incredible standards of QA have to be met

My point refers to the OP. Neither h.s. nor h.s.i. would be likely. They may, emphasis on may, have existed 130,000 ybp, but the current majority opinion is that h.s.i., h.n. and h.s. did not leave Africa before 60,000 ybp. The Beringia land bridge may have existed 130,000, although it's doubtful. So h.s.i., h.n. or h.s. very could likely not have used it. For other hominids, see the OP. I was responding to that, because even goofy Pennsylvania farmers can have specialist knowledge and insight--c.f. John Dickinson. (That last part is an historian's joke, so spare me any replies.)

I got a minute, tell me everything you know about John Dickinson

maybe everyone's looking at it from the wrong side

maybe the question is who are these guys and where did they go

assuming they (if there really is a they) were arrivals is thinking too small IMNSHO

I wonder if they looked anything like this.

Well, to start, he wasn't from Penn's Woods, he was from Delaware.

Here's what they really looked like:



That's Ulysses Grant on the left, when he was just a sprat.

Actually, until 1776 (just after Caeser Rodney and John Dickinson signed the Declaration of Independence), Delaware was still part of the PEnn holdings nd was called the "LOWER THREE COUNTIES OF Pennsylvania"
New Castle, Kent, and Sussex.

Another little known fact is that the Mason Dixon Line , originally surveyed to define the demarcation between the Penn n Calvert holdings (Pa and Md). the MD line actually ran North and South long the western border of what would become the state of Delaware. To this day there is a "boundary commission" that still hs not properly settled a small "Wedge" of land between Delaware and Maryland. And its not been adequately settled for many people who claim citizenship in Delaware or Maryland.

Connecticut had several distinct claims in the pot too. There are several paleoIndian sites within Kent and Sussex Delaware that have been documented nd then sealed so looters wouldnt steal artifacts

Quote ehBeth:

Do you think it's possible they evolved from New World primates?

Well, capuchin monkeys have the largest brain weight to body weight of any primate outside of humans.

usually we see that the plces of species origins are associated with plces where the lrgets number of genera of that specific family can be found (either extant or extinct)

We usually say taht its an "out of Africa" theory because almost QLL the ancient hominids re found there as fossils. Weve only few fossils of Homo in the New world and they are LL modern humans. Breaks Mayrs rules and Dollos Law

Is the core evidence for all of this still just an interpretation of fractures on bones? Or is there more to it at this point? I've lost track.