My Morals tell me right from wrong

I think the statement is a contradiction. How can one profess that their morals are different, and then say they don't think it matters whether "it's moral or not and what mines are to the next person." The last part of the statement indicates a person who is amoral, i.e., not concerned with morals, so this person would never say "my morals are different than everyone else's." Even if they were immoral, i.e. lacking morals, they wouldn't say it. I think this will be an interesting debate though.

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Answering

The answer of "my morals are different than everyone else's. I don't think it matters whether it's moral or not", is a very ignorant address to the rest of society. It is sophist and ignores the fact of its relevancy to everyone else. It presents a situation which involves others and at the same time presents that it doesn't concern others what I do or say. So it should follow that my actions do not affect what that person feels or does because in order to reach my objective I can do whatever is needed to be done for the sake of my moral conscience. Which is ridiculous, for if one's morals and actions push on another's morals it would follow that everyone would be offending everyone else's in society and society would be in chaos.

Therefore we have many different laws that exist in our world, to keep order and to punish certain conduct. Some of these laws vary from individual to individual and many believe that what I do is my own business, but that is a very selfish way to live, only pleasing oneself. Morality in itself is defined by

1. Conforming to standards of what is right or just in behavior; virtuous: a moral life.

It would follow that morals and actions would need to sustain the whole of society or a community in a peaceful and just manner. Society needs order, and man has laws and codes in many different ways to find a common ground. It enforces moral life but it does not teach or present how one is to live morally. Some morals lack from one to the other but one thing that majority agrees on are murder, theft and violence are wrong. Often times the law or true morality is twisted around and perverted, "its okay to steal", "what's wrong if I cheat on my wife" but when it comes down to it we can see the consequences it has on the lives of the victims and the offender. Everyone has a right to their own opinion but it does not make it right. So just because we feel a certain way or want to do something it does not mean that we have the right too. Chances are that what I want to do is not for the better of everyone and perhaps not myself either.

We have morals for the sake of goodness and perfecting ones character. Part of our morality should include the care and well being of others as well as regard for our well being. Our purpose and meaning of life is to love and know God above all else or at least perfecting ones character[according to aquainas works on purpose of life]. Being humans we need to seek intelligible goods and not just pleasure and what makes us feel good. We can partly do this by working on developing a well formed conscience and reading scripture regularly. We can live out God's word, pray and keep God actively in our life. Think of others before we think of ourselves and in turn will help us form and develop a good character and ultimately to the highest being and absolute truth.

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So, in effect, you are asserting that you know there is a God...and that the God has decided what is moral and immoral.

Before I take your thread seriously enough to attempt a response/answer...a few question, if I may:

How do you know there is a God?

How do you know what pleases that God...and what offends it?

How do you know what that God considers moral and immoral?

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Oh, by the way....

...welcome to A2K.

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And my question is, can a person live morally without a belief in the Judeo-Christian god? Is it possible that morality transcends a book and a preacher?

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Part of managing a world full of human beings with wildly disparate views and values involves not falling into the trap of being a moral absolutist. That is the reason the law is flexible. "Innocent before proven guilty" equals "There but for the grace of God go I". Ultimately, our society tends to favour mercy over severe punishment, but these days, I'm not so sure.

If one's goal is to better themselves in a positive way and truly help others without trying to interfere in their beliefs, I don't really care how they get there. Again, I'm getting mixed messages here, and apparently so are others as I scroll...are we talking religion or law?

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Frank Apisa wrote:

So, in effect, you are asserting that you know there is a God...and that the God has decided what is moral and immoral.

Before I take your thread seriously enough to attempt a response/answer...a few question, if I may:

How do you know there is a God?

How do you know what pleases that God...and what offends it?

How do you know what that God considers moral and immoral?

I am asserting that there is a God however, my understanding of Gods existence is through philosophy and reason[Thomas Aquainas works on Summa Theo. which is based from Socratic works and then to Aquainas]
And I apart from my spiritual walk of faith I believe because the truth backs up the facts and from my experience no one has been able to refute his works on the proof of Gods existence.

Reply - How do you know there is a God?
I know through my experiences of faith. Such things include coincidences too coincidental to be just coincidences, feeling emotion etc. I also know his existence through logical sound reasoning of philosophy.

Reply - How do you know what pleases that God...and what offends it?
Knowing God asserting he is ultimately goodness and love and has a love for all things good I know through natural law, legal law and the scriptural law what pleases him and what offends Him because it would follow if he is the source of love etc. He would will good and not evil.

Reply - How do you know what that God considers moral and immoral?
Stated above.

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FreeDuck wrote:

And my question is, can a person live morally without a belief in the Judeo-Christian god? Is it possible that morality transcends a book and a preacher?

Yes I believe one can live morally without a belief in a Judeo-Christian god, but the basis of what that morally would still differ. I believe if one searches deep enough they can find the irrefutable truth to some moral ethical questions. It is absolutely and truly possible for morality to transcend belief systems and religion or stated above. In fact I think truth does lead back to what some religions teach and the reason because many do not believe in God or certain morals that are parallel to Judeo-Christian and Islamic etc religions is because the lack of knowledge or perhaps distorted truth. I state that I believe the absolute truth remains and theres just a wide variety of relevant subjective truths.

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So you mean that a person's morality comes from God whether he believes in him or not?

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cavfancier wrote:

Part of managing a world full of human beings with wildly disparate views and values involves not falling into the trap of being a moral absolutist. That is the reason the law is flexible. "Innocent before proven guilty" equals "There but for the grace of God go I". Ultimately, our society tends to favour mercy over severe punishment, but these days, I'm not so sure.

If one's goal is to better themselves in a positive way and truly help others without trying to interfere in their beliefs, I don't really care how they get there. Again, I'm getting mixed messages here, and apparently so are others as I scroll...are we talking religion or law?

Were talking about Moral ethics which I guess includes religion and law. But aside from that thats exactly what the law of the land[Legal Law] does it helps keep order in society and tries not to interfere with belief systems whether it be an individual belief or religious communal belief.

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FreeDuck wrote:

So you mean that a person's morality comes from God whether he believes in him or not?

Well yes actually yes I am, because from my knowledge and understanding of truth I believe in A God whos "Ipsum Esse" Is a being whos essence is to exist and therefore it follows He created everything good and evil, and so it would procede that the basis of my morals comes from God and maybe your basis of morals regarding murder lets say are perhaps the same. I believe that you are mistaking the part for the whole and so in a way yes all Morality comes from god but I believe we can produce our own or make our own individual morals apart from Gods moral teaching.

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Well aside from that what do you guys think on morality what makes your morals right and not flawed or wrong to the whole of society?

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I myself believe that there is a basic, minimal, morality that most people can agree to. Where it comes from I am not comfortable speculating as I know moral and good people from all walks of life, many different religions, and some who are atheists. Most people have an understanding of what is simple human decency. I'm not prepared to speculate on much else.

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crazydragonclk wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
So, in effect, you are asserting that you know there is a God...and that the God has decided what is moral and immoral.

Before I take your thread seriously enough to attempt a response/answer...a few question, if I may:

How do you know there is a God?

How do you know what pleases that God...and what offends it?

How do you know what that God considers moral and immoral?

I am asserting that there is a God however, my understanding of Gods existence is through philosophy and reason[Thomas Aquainas works on Summa Theo. which is based from Socratic works and then to Aquainas]
And I apart from my spiritual walk of faith I believe because the truth backs up the facts and from my experience no one has been able to refute his works on the proof of Gods existence.

Don't be silly.

I have refuted the Aquinas "proof of God"...and to be honest with you, The Aquinas works do not rise nearly to a proof.

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Reply - How do you know there is a God?
I know through my experiences of faith.

One cannot "know" something through faith. By its very nature, faith is acknowledging that it is not "knowledge." That's why they call it faith.

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Such things include coincidences too coincidental to be just coincidences...

This is one of the most absurd statements I've ever read in this forum...and I've read many very absurd statements.

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..., feeling emotion etc.

One cannot "know" things like this through emotions. In fact, if anything, feelings and emotions work against the common sense needed to "know" anything.

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I also know his existence through logical sound reasoning of philosophy.

Aha...now you are on to something.

Do you mind furnishing a few examples so we know what you are talking about here?

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Reply - How do you know what pleases that God...and what offends it?
Knowing God asserting he is ultimately goodness and love and has a love for all things good I know through natural law, legal law and the scriptural law what pleases him and what offends Him because it would follow if he is the source of love etc. He would will good and not evil.

Well...we haven't even established that you KNOW there is a God...so most of this is self-serving. But even the self-serving stuff really doesn't make much sense. What does all this "source of love" have to do with what pleases or offends your god?

If you are simply deciding what pleases your god or offends your god because of what is written in some book...why not just come out and say that?

Your god does value honesty...does it not?

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Reply - How do you know what that God considers moral and immoral?
Stated above.

And my response to what you stated above is stated above. So I reiterate my questions:

How do you know there is a God?

How do you know what pleases that God and what offends that God?

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Yes your actually right with pretty much most of the stuff that you said about my statements, well since my answers and understanding of Gods existence is of not the real truth could you post some of your stuff on the refuting proof of Gods existence. Also partly decide on what my morals are based on through the bible but also because I jus know some things are wrong like killing someone and stealing. And I dont have all the answers thats why im interested in hearing other responses to the suject like your.

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crazydragonclk wrote:

Yes your actually right with pretty much most of the stuff that you said about my statements, well since my answers and understanding of Gods existence is of not the real truth could you post some of your stuff on the refuting proof of Gods existence.

I have no idea if a God exists...and I have no idea if there are no gods. And nearly as I can tell...the evidence available does not point in either direction.

It is my opinion that at best...we can only guess which is correct.

I certainly am not saying that your guesses...or your "beliefs" if you prefer...are wrong. They MAY be correct. My point is...every indication is that we do not know for sure which it is.

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Also partly decide on what my morals are based on through the bible but also because I jus know some things are wrong like killing someone and stealing.

Well...I certainly think that society operates much, much, much better if we do not allow people to indesciminately kill others...or to steal from others.

But this has more to do with efficiency than with morals.

There certainly are instances where killing is justified...and I dare say, there are instances where stealing is justified.

Neither is intrinsically immoral....no matter how repugnant they are to both you and me.

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And I dont have all the answers thats why im interested in hearing other responses to the suject like your.

That is why I am posting....to share my thoughts and guesses.

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Frank - dont you think that nothing can come into being from nothing? and following from where Aquainas comes to the conclusion that a being whoes essence is to exist is the first cause what do you think of that?

Can there not be a God? I cant seem to find a way around proving that there is not a God because it sounds just right in the way it is?

From my knowledge I dont see how it can be that we just exist from nothing?

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Frank never implied that we come from nothing. Clearly we come from something, but we are still not quite sure what that something is.

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crazydragonclk wrote:

Frank - dont you think that nothing can come into being from nothing?

As Cav mentioned, I am not suggesting that we came from nothing...although theists often suggest that their God came from nothing...or simply always existed.

Perhaps existence always was! Perhaps the universe always has been...with no beginning and with no end.

In any case, my point is, once again as Cav mentioned....we simply do not know...and it is illogical to simply assume that the only possible answer is...There is a God...and the God made us.

Quote:

...and following from where Aquainas comes to the conclusion that a being whoes essence is to exist is the first cause what do you think of that?

Aquinas, in his Summa Theologica offered five "proofs" of the existence of God...based on motion, cause, possibility and necessity, the nature of things, and governanace of the world.

Essentially, Aquinas described certain conditions...

...for example...each cause has an effect...and each effect is the result of a cause...and at some point, we get back to an initial cause...

...and then he made an illogical conclusion. He said..."...and this, everyone acknowledges is God."

Well...as I said earlier, that is not a proof at all...and it also suffers from a lack of logic. Even if he were correct that an inital cause were necessary...he could (and should have) concluded...."...and we do not know what that first cause was."

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Can there not be a God?

Of course there can be a God. In fact, there could be many gods.

Who knows?

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I cant seem to find a way around proving that there is not a God because it sounds just right in the way it is?

Try not biting off that particular chunk. Some of the most brilliant minds the world has ever seen have tried...and come up short.

Bottom line is...we don't seem to know...and there doesn't seem to be any way to find out. At least not presently.

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From my knowledge I dont see how it can be that we just exist from nothing?

No problem there. But the way to resolve that is to say...it is an unknown...rather than simply saying "Therefore there has to be a God."

AND EVEN IF YOU DECIDE THERE MUST BE A GOD...what makes you suppose the god possibly would have likes and dislikes...would have things that please it or offend it. Even if there is a God...what makes you suppose the God would have anything to do with what we insignificant being consider good or bad...virtuous or evil.?

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My Morals tell me right from wrong

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