Question for atheists and believers

ok, I guess there could be a difference there. By demonstrating that a theist cannot prove a god exists, the atheist feels he has demonstrated that none does. Whereas an agnostic sees both the theist and the atheist 's conclusions as unverifiable.

That it ?

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No . . . it's not "it" at all. You continue to try to paint the atheist as some sort of holder of a faith-based belief. Those who adamantly run around bashing religionist and proclaiming that there is no god have simply made a belief of religious quality of their unsupported certitude about no god existing. They don't deserve the title of atheist.

Think about the word: a-theist, one without god. I have no good reason to believe a god exists, absent any good reason, i won't believe that a god exists. Your statement above is simply restating the case which agnostics love to make, to wit: you believe there is a god, while you believe there is no god, whereas i say neither of you can know this to a certainty, therefore i have the superior position.

An atheist is without god, for whatever the reason. Absent demonstrable proof of the existence of any deity, i contend that everyone is without god, and therefore, every is "atheist" whether or not they recognize it. Sadly, theism dominates any such discussion, and immediately sets the atheist off as someone entertaining an equal and opposite belief. This proves conventient for the arguments of agnostics wishing to portray themselves as occupying the philosophical high ground.

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hey bioplume, believer or non- believer, nobody in here deserved that chidish remark!

i'm a believer, btw. my god is not a d#$@ nor a jackass.

go spread your ugly thoughts elsewhere.

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I generally let people believe whatever they want unless they knock on my door at 6 A.M. on a Sunday wanting some bible chat. Then I politely invite them and do my best to annoy them as much as they just annoyed me so they leave, and in those situations, I do use the bible as evidence, given that for every biblical quote one can cite, there is another that contradicts it. Apparently, they don't like to discuss the bible in that manner. Wink

I have faith in a lot of things, just not 'god' as a concept. I'm not techinically an agnostic, because I'm fairly certain there is order and balance in the universe, which has it's own form of creation and self management. I just don't think it's the result some omnipotent bearded dude in the sky who needed a project. Religion to me is myth, stories made up at first, to explain the unexplainable. Later, revisionists used stories to convert people, justify war, or political decisions. I don't remember the last time a country was invaded because something in 'Aesop's Fables' told them to do it.

Basically, I don't buy any religious text as 'divine', just the misguided ramblings of human beings who still don't understand the questions they originally sought answers for once they tromped out of the sea and into the caves.

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Now for those who haven't read it 'Christ and Culture' is a very interesting read for both theists and athiests of the Christian, non-Christian varieties:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0061300039/102-0683775-3469703?v=glance

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This is an interesting thread, think I will put another spin on it.

What about people like me who have experienced God first hand. Now while I know God exists I can not prove it. There are millions of people who have experienced God, or at least some sort of higher intelligence. Near death experiencers, thousands of them, and just plain ol' folks who for some reason or another see the light.

http://www.aleroy.com/board221.htm

Now you could say these experiences are just illusions or something similar, but you can't prove it. Science has not proved NDEs are physical, in fact, there is more evidence that shows they are not.

So we have atheists who think God doesn't exist.
We have agnostics who don't know.
We have theist who believe God exists, and we have experiencers who know God exists.

Very interesting mix, don't you think.

My vote goes to Atheists faith that God doesn't exist. Since His existance is not provable.

Love

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Geeze, you jokers are tiresome. No, an atheist is not someone with "faith" that god doesn't exist. That argument is very convenient, however, to the feeble thesis of the theist--just one belief chalenging another. But it just ain't so. The theist says that god exists. The atheist says, i don't believe it; the atheist is not saying s/he believes no god exists. If the individual in question truly is atheist, truly is without god, they frankly don't care.

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Now the most interesting thing to me is that somebody always want to make somebody else believe what he believes in, or the lack there of. What I say is why try to convince people that what you believe in is correct and why try to force your ideals on some other soul so they can believe like you do. Why don't we rather focus on our answers and try to search for the truth without trying to impose your own view point.
And if you claim that believers can not prove the existence of God, well, try to prove his in-existence.

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Setanta wrote:

Geeze, you jokers are tiresome. No, an atheist is not someone with "faith" that god doesn't exist. That argument is very convenient, however, to the feeble thesis of the theist--just one belief chalenging another. But it just ain't so. The theist says that god exists. The atheist says, i don't believe it; the atheist is not saying s/he believes no god exists. If the individual in question truly is atheist, truly is without god, they frankly don't care.

I intended no jokes. I guess I can't understand what you mean.
You say the theist says God exists. Then you say the atheist says I don't believe it. In the dictionary it says belief is a synonym of faith.

Quote:

synonyms BELIEF, FAITH, CREDENCE, CREDIT mean assent to the truth of something offered for acceptance. BELIEF may or may not imply certitude in the believer *my belief that I had caught all the errors*

So I think it is rational to say that atheists have faith or belief that God doesn't exist.

Hey, there is nothing wrong with faith, we could not live without it.
Faith is trust and we show our faith everytime we go through a green light with the faith those who have a red light will not hit us. If you set your alarm, plan anything, or save money you have faith or trust in the future. No one lives without faith.

I guess you could put your own meaning to "believe" for your own purposes, but don't expect others to understand those meanings.

Love

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furiousflee wrote:

Now the most interesting thing to me is that somebody always want to make somebody else believe what he believes in, or the lack there of. What I say is why try to convince people that what you believe in is correct and why try to force your ideals on some other soul so they can believe like you do. Why don't we rather focus on our answers and try to search for the truth without trying to impose your own view point.
And if you claim that believers can not prove the existence of God, well, try to prove his in-existence.

If you are talking about me, then notice carefully that I have not and will not ask anyone to believe as I do. Finding your spiritual roots is a personal thing, only the person who really wants to know finds. So I have nothing to sell, I get no points for "saving" those who are not lost. Each individual is unique, each finds their own way and their own path. No one can do that for them.

Love

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Exactly my point...I was not pointing towards somebody, call it a global proclamation. I believe that if you are fine with your beliefs, then who cares what anybody else says. I am a christian yet I do not believe in telling people I am right, I do it the way Jesus did it. Loved people and helped them find the conclusion. No force required just sacrifice of one self and embrace of something greater

and in the great words of fight club
Self improvement is masturbation, self destruction could be the answer...

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Setana wrote:

"The theist says that god exists.

The atheist says, i don't believe it."

<Making my brain word harder ....>

So, .... "I don't believe it" i.e. I do not believe that a god exists" .... is different from ..... "I believe that no god exists."

Took me a while.

And an agnostic says .... "I do not know whether or not a god exists."

Couldn't an atheist, therefore, also be an agnostic ?
The two statements do not seem to contradict each other.

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I am definitely no agnostic, not a theist. No amount of word wrangling will alter that.

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I'd say it'sa miracle you just asked me that for I was just wondering what you were going to ask me and then you did.

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I think Algis sums up the whole thing, and if you don't get it, you are not a theist, atheist or an agnostic.

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From atheist to believer in God
I was an atheist before. But when I started to learn about the computer I suddenly realized that there must be a master designer who designed me so perfectly, that my computer never crashed or down.
If we believe that computer cannot came by itself no matter how long we wait for one if there is nobody who first designed and put them together.
If the chance of the parts of the computer came into existence and turn itself into a computer is almost nil, what is the chance of the cells in our body came into being and functioning as it is now.
I cannot explain how the cells decide which material from the food I take in to send to the different parts of the body and never made a mistake, like sending wrong material for my hair which were intended for my lips, and end up with pink and soft hair, instead of black and brittle ones.
Or I cannot explain how the cells in the mango tree never make a mistake and turn the fruits into an orange, although it is taking the same material from the ground just like its neighbour the orange tree.

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Re: From atheist to believer in God

Weilong wrote:

I was an atheist before. But when I started to learn about the computer I suddenly realized that there must be a master designer who designed me so perfectly, that my computer never crashed or down.
If we believe that computer cannot came by itself no matter how long we wait for one if there is nobody who first designed and put them together.
If the chance of the parts of the computer came into existence and turn itself into a computer is almost nil, what is the chance of the cells in our body came into being and functioning as it is now.
I cannot explain how the cells decide which material from the food I take in to send to the different parts of the body and never made a mistake, like sending wrong material for my hair which were intended for my lips, and end up with pink and soft hair, instead of black and brittle ones.
Or I cannot explain how the cells in the mango tree never make a mistake and turn the fruits into an orange, although it is taking the same material from the ground just like its neighbour the orange tree.

Your post is a beautiful thought, one I have considered most of my life. I think it is called "intelligent design" and for me proves the existance of a higher intelligence no matter what name you wish to use for it.

The theory that this beautiful and well organized, ordered universe we live in came from a random act, an accident is totally irrational to me.

Love

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Maybe there is an infinite number of universes, but we onbly see this one because if it wasn't like it is, we wouln't be around to observe it .

That is the so called anthropic principle. Not sure if its the weak or strong version...

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angie wrote:

Setana wrote:

"The theist says that god exists.

The atheist says, i don't believe it."

<Making my brain word harder ....>

So, .... "I don't believe it" i.e. I do not believe that a god exists" .... is different from ..... "I believe that no god exists."

Took me a while.

And an agnostic says .... "I do not know whether or not a god exists."

Couldn't an atheist, therefore, also be an agnostic ?
The two statements do not seem to contradict each other.

Something about this post that I like a lot!

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no surprises there . . .

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