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Toddler dragged under water at Disney by alligator

 
 
Linkat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Jun, 2016 03:15 pm
From the Washington Post - Matt Morgan, an Orlando attorney said his observation that the lake is lined like a sandy beach with chairs and umbrellas shows that visitors were welcome on the shore. The argument one could anticipate Disney making is that the presence of alligators in Florida’s fresh waters is well known, he said. The counter argument “is this family from out of state that comes to Disney World assumes that Disney has taken every measure to protect them and their family, and could not in their wildest nightmare imagine that there was an alligator large enough to take their son.”
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  3  
Reply Wed 15 Jun, 2016 03:18 pm
@glitterbag,
I don't think I'd have been thinking of alligators in a resort, unless signs were posted. I'd know to worry about them in the far north in my own country.

Poor little kid..
0 Replies
 
Linkat
 
  2  
Reply Wed 15 Jun, 2016 03:22 pm
http://cdn.newsday.com/polopoly_fs/1.11917732.1465986423!/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_1280/image.jpg

Here is a picture of the sign and the beach - it says Deep Water - looks like sharp drop No Swimming - which would give someone an indication that it is deep an why there is no swimming.
0 Replies
 
chai2
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 15 Jun, 2016 03:45 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

And recovery means recovering the child's remains which means killing alligators. So are you ready to volunteer to tell them they are being silly for wanting to bury the remains of their child?


Yeah actually, I would tell them they are being maybe not silly, but counter productive. I would be thinking "are you ******* kidding me? You want the ate up half digested remains of your kid so you can put it in a closed casket and stick it in the ground?

I think it's disgraceful that alligators are being destroyed to seek out the one (or maybe more than one since when one started feeding, it would have attracted others.)

You know the kid was eaten, there's your "closure".

You know why DW has lagoons and probably other stuff that shouldn't be there in the first place?

So that people can come and spend an assload of money trying to have some "magical time" created for their kids, or recreate something for themselves.
They have lagoons because people started sighing "it would be soooo great if we had a totally unnatural, mosquito, alligator, itchy plant free, not too sandy because that's yucky, place with water, but we don't want to get too hot so we need someplace within a few yards that's air conditioned so we can go in and buy more overpriced stuff.

Maybe they had alligator warning signs at one time. I don't know. I would bet a dollar if they did they probably took them down because some people complained "this is scaring my children, we don't want them to be scared while visiting this overpriced replica of hand picked fairy tales and schmaltz.

If I went to Nebraska, without looking it up, I would be aware there are tornados, bad winter conditions, major heat in summer, not to go on the side of the fence where there are bulls (or cows for that matter, they can kill you with a kick), flash floods perhaps, rattle snakes, fire ants and other stinging bugs, sometimes heavy lightning, and people that might follow you into rest stops with ill intent.

What is this? You want to go someplace different to experience it, but you don't want to educate yourself of what the experience would be like? Many prefer to have that experience watered down to the extent that it's nothing like what the region really is at all.

I love you linkat, but when anyone throws out there "well I hope you never run into those poor people" I have to roll my eyes. You just happen to be the one who did it. I can guarantee within a millionith of a percent certainty that I'm never going to meet this family, or any of their relative or friends. Beth and I are both talking about inconvenient truths that just so happen to not be dipped in winnie the pooh huney and tinkerbell dust.

I have an RN friend who used to work at DW for several years. She told how they would be trying to get to a tourist that was having a heart attack or something else life threatening, but they weren't allow to go out in the open. Even if it took longer to get there, they had to use the behind the scenes tunnels and stuff. They couldn't yell out instructions to other medical people, as that would "ruin the experience". They could look like they were medical people either. That would look like "somethings wrong"

It's all about the image, and the image is all for the money.
They give the people what they want, and the people don't want to know reality.






sozobe
 
  4  
Reply Wed 15 Jun, 2016 04:04 pm
This is just so utterly horrifying.

I feel like it's irresponsible to turn away from the news, even if it's horrible. But the last few days have been really tough to bear. Not just the Orlando massacre (and gosh, Orlando, what a few days that saying "Orlando" alone isn't enough to differentiate between a young woman being shot as she met with fans, a massacre in which 49 people were killed, or a toddler being dragged to his death by an alligator) but this and then also today learned that the close friend of one of my friends just lost her two children, who died in a house fire. They were from Minneapolis but visiting their aunt, here in Columbus. They were supposed to have left the previous day, but begged and pleaded to stay one more day.

It's just crushing.
roger
 
  2  
Reply Wed 15 Jun, 2016 04:07 pm
@chai2,
I suppose there are people looking for real, natural wilderness at Disney World.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  2  
Reply Wed 15 Jun, 2016 04:12 pm
@sozobe,
It's off topic, but I think there are times when it's perfectly reasonable to protect yourself from the news for a time.

I had to do it a few months back.

I ask myself: can I do anything about this? If I think I can I do it...eg give time or money to political campaigns, give to asylum seeker or assistance to refugee programs etc. then I give it.

I think we are hard wired to want to keep up with events...probably because when we lived in small bands it made sense to do so for survival purposes. Now we get flooded, as you know, with horror from everywhere.

There's not a damn thing you can do for the parents in Florida. You have probably done what you can re Pulse.

I'd say that becoming traumatised yourself isn't going to do a thing. If you need it, do it.
sozobe
 
  2  
Reply Wed 15 Jun, 2016 04:14 pm
@dlowan,
Yeah, you're right.

I've done that before. Some of the Syrian refugee stuff got to be just too much for a while. Then I say, "Well if it's too much for you to read, what about them living it?"

But you're very right that at some point the utility is limited and you have to focus on what you can do.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  3  
Reply Wed 15 Jun, 2016 04:16 pm
@chai2,
Well, it's a good thing this heartbroken family didn't have to deal with you.
InfraBlue
 
  3  
Reply Wed 15 Jun, 2016 04:23 pm
The reports are that the boy's body was found intact, and that he drowned. He wasn't eaten.

http://www.wesh.com/news/so-child-dragged-into-water-by-alligator-near-disneys-grand-floridian-resort-spa/40058064
glitterbag
 
  6  
Reply Wed 15 Jun, 2016 05:31 pm
I'm going to protect myself from this particular A2K thread. The death of this toddler make me very very sad. I can't muster up any scorn for the parents or anger at the alligator. The day I become completely pitiless about such a tragedy is the day I lose my humanity.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Wed 15 Jun, 2016 05:53 pm
@chai2,
Geez Chai.

You do realize that there is a grieving family in this story that lost a 2 year old child. Your posts here seem just a little bit heartless.
0 Replies
 
Roberta
 
  3  
Reply Wed 15 Jun, 2016 05:55 pm
I read that it's not possible to prevent alligators from getting into DisneyWorld and other similar places. They can travel overland and underwater, and there's little that can be done about it.

Of the three tragedies this week, only one did not involve evil. The alligator was doing what alligators do. The humans are another matter.

I cringe when they kill animals for being animals. I also cringe when innocent people are destroyed (children and adults).
chai2
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 15 Jun, 2016 06:29 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Well, it's a good thing this heartbroken family didn't have to deal with you.


Quote:
Yeah actually, I would tell them they are being maybe not silly, but counter productive. I would be thinking "are you ******* kidding me?


Well, from what infrablue posted. Looked like they were being counter productive.



What roberta said. The alligator was doing what alligators do. I had already mentioned there's no way to keep them out of this little man made "garden of eden"

So numerous gators were slaughtered needlessly. That, or finding the boy inside one or more, won't bring the kid back, and whether anyone likes to hear it or not, would just leave the parents with a mess of flesh.
It's bad enough they now have to deal with a drowned corpse.

Oh, I'm sorry, did I upset someones sensibilities? Death is ugly. The idea of trying to find digesting body parts is perverse.

Feeling badly about what happened to a child, and what the parents have experienced does not mean, especially if you're not directly involved in the situation, that you completely lose you ability to think logically and talk about how it happened.

I'm wondering if the parents are now wishing they just kept the kid away from the waters edge.

Instead, now all they'll get is the comfort of a kajillion FB people posting unuseful little "I'm praying for you" sentiments with pretty little angels.


FOUND SOUL
 
  2  
Reply Wed 15 Jun, 2016 07:47 pm
@chai2,
This to me is a tough one. I mean as a Tourist, I would have absolutely no idea that there "could" , "would" be alligators at Disney. If I saw a sign saying "no swimming" I would assume the waters are simply not safe to swim in, not that there could be an alligator.

As a parent. If that is what I thought? I was a tourist? How could I possibly live with myself, I would feel I placed that child in that danger, then I would get angry and believe that there should have been signs!!!! Then I would never have placed my child in that danger.

Then there is the comments from the staff ...

Quote:
Disney said it works closely with the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission on a comprehensive approach to alligator management, including reducing the potential for interaction with humans. Disney said its employees call in sightings from guests, and technicians from the pest management team are dispatched. Technicians encourage gators back into the water when possible and determine if they need to be caught.

Disney relocates alligators considered a nuisance, meaning they continually show up on the banks of waterways sunning themselves, don't fear humans or have done damage. Disney can catch and release alligators 4 feet or smaller. The state handles larger ones.

"They have people constantly monitoring" the area on the lookout for gators, Corwin said.

One employee at the Disney property who did not want to be identified said in an email "there is such a problem on property with guests feeding the alligators thinking it's cool." Visitors at Buena Vista Palace regularly feed two of them from the balconies, he said.

In 1986, an alligator bit a boy at a pond at Disney's Fort Wilderness campground. The boy suffered knee and thigh injuries. The parents later sued the resort, alleging Disney failed to warn visitors.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  3  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2016 06:01 am
@Roberta,
Roberta wrote:

I read that it's not possible to prevent alligators from getting into DisneyWorld and other similar places. They can travel overland and underwater, and there's little that can be done about it.

Of the three tragedies this week, only one did not involve evil. The alligator was doing what alligators do. The humans are another matter.

I cringe when they kill animals for being animals. I also cringe when innocent people are destroyed (children and adults).


That's interesting. I do think that there need to be signs then as I don't think people in hotel grounds can be expected to know about all the local dangers.

0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  3  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2016 10:48 am
@chai2,
Aren't you a sweetheart?
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2016 10:49 am
@InfraBlue,
That's what alligators do with their prey...they first drown them. Why the alligator didn't consume the body will forever be a mystery.
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2016 10:57 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
According to statements in the news from experts, alligators do, at times, kill their prey and return to it later. I had thought that they immediately ate whatever they killed.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  5  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2016 11:11 am
@InfraBlue,
Actually that's true. It depends upon how hungry the gator is when it takes a prey animal. Often they deposit the body somewhere so they can return to it. That probably is the answer. Unfortunately for this poor child they are opportunistic predators. If they see an opportunity, they seize it, regardless of whether or not they are hungry.

The alligator, of course, was just doing what alligators do. No malice, just instinct. However, research has shown that they are smarter than many believe in that they learn the habits of prey. This one may have been aware that prey often comes to the edges of the lagoon and so parked himself there, unseen below the water.

Another reason why Disney was negligent. If they cared enough for the safety of their customers they would have understood the habits of alligators and taken appropriate precautions. They, obviously, didn't and they will pay for that mistake but not enough to necessarily change their practices. The publicity about this tragedy will motivate them far beyond the millions they will pay the family.
 

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