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Fri 3 Jun, 2016 11:31 pm
Humans are destructive to other forms of life. No question that we are extincting many animals and plants. Most all of us know about this, but I wonder how many think about how our pets aid and abet in the endeavor. Take cats. They kill 4 billion animals per year. I had a cat that almost daily left a dead squirrel by my door. I was considering giving him up, despite the fact he and I were very affectionate to one another. But, he slept under a car wheel and was run over. I missed the cat, but celebrated the lives that were saved.
According to one site I visited, cats have extincted 33 species.
I did not find as many statistics on dogs. They cause 55,000 rabies deaths per year, outside of the United States. But, they attack and kill their share.
I once was offered ownership of two Rottweilers, because, the owner said, he could not keep them. They were magnificent and these are the only Rottweilers I have ever described as such. Lean, muscular, beautiful coats, looking back at me with with fine smiles. But I had to refuse. A good thing, too. I learned from a third party that these same dogs had been guilty of mauling to death local livestock.
My present dog is a Shepherd/Lab mix, according to the SPCA. He has killed a number of possums, voles, rats and so forth. One day I was out back with him, when he suddenly ran across the yard at top speed and grabbed a mockingbird before it could take off. I had to take a copperhead away from him and kill it. The snake had kept striking his nose, but he kept biting at it. A single dose of children's Benadryl made him well from the venom. Fortunately, he does not roam outside of my fence.
Not all of our pets are guilty. Not all humans are particularly guilty. I hope people will eventually get control of the situation.
Personally I object to the use of the word 'guilty' when applied to animals. They have no moral sense or such a thing as a conscience. An animal kills because that it what it does. A cat who kills a bird is not deserving of blame in the same way that a human might be. My next door neighbour fits her cat with a collar that has a bell, the idea being that its jingling will warn birds of the cat's approach. I thought this was unfair, so, evidently did the cat, because it has learned to creep about so the bell doesn't ring, and also to use things such as the edges of fence boards to help it shrug the damn thing off. He has had half a dozen in the last year.
@Tes yeux noirs,
You can't blame an animal for doing what its nature tells it to, but you can spay and neuter pets to keep their population from exploding. You can keep your pets at home.
@edgarblythe,
Nice outlook.
Good crossbreed (lab/sheepdog)
Hope your knowledge of canine-pack-psych allows you to develop (you both) to each others' needs.
Both my dogs (staff/boxer 10-yrs, lab/malamute/timber-wolf (Ultra-dominant) 2-yrs) will, unconditionally, sacrifice their entirity for any of their/our pack (Cuts both ways).
But neither of them will kill for no purpose.
Then again - Neither of them has acquired the knowledge of killing. Nor shall they - Unless the world goes tits-up and their/our survival-requirements demand it.
I believe that ONLY when 'humanity' has truly been kicked to its knees, will it learn from its actions - And I mean 'bigtime'.
I'm more interested in the 'sojourn' than the 'physical', but good luck to you all for trying.
@Tes yeux noirs,
Interesting Tes.
I always consider human beings as a species of animal.
I think we are polyglorphs from outer space.
@Tes yeux noirs,
I am curious about what you think the terms "moral sense" and "conscience" mean, and why you think these traits are only present in human beings.
I don't celebrate or encourage the extinction of any species, but neither do I morn the ones I've heard about. I understand that well over 90% of all species that have existed are now extinct.
@Leadfoot,
It's our duty to finish them off?
@maxdancona,
You are right to use the word "think", because I only think that animals don't have mental states like humans do. I don't know. Eugene Linden suggests there are many examples of animal behavior and intelligence whereas Daniel Dennett thinks that consciousness needs a certain kind of informational organization that does not seem to be 'hard-wired' in humans, but comes from human culture. I'm with Dennett, mainly because I have found many of his views on consciousness and the possibility (or otherwise) of machine consciousness persuasive. However I am open to being convinced of the opposing view. I think it would be crazy to say a cat "murdered" a bird. I suppose you could say that social animals have conscience, in the sense of 'feeling you have done something bad', or 'feeling the need to help someone', which are attributes of community healthiness. We have all heard stories about e.g. dogs rescuing drowning cats etc and I think they might have some kind of immediate urge to protect other animals and people, but I don't think they are capable of thinking about it. An interesting topic.
@Leadfoot,
94-96% post-permian (allegedly).
I disagree - But that's another topic.
@Tes yeux noirs,
I think what humans consider "conscience" is fairly typical among social animals. Primates are wired to live in societies with a set of rules with emotions to act as negative reinforcement when a member of a clan breaks a rule or sees someone else break a rule.
What humans ascribe to "consciousness" is sometimes just instinct common to primates and other vertebrates. The unique ability that humans have is symbolic thought... but many times our brains trick themselves into creating "reasons" for what is really just animal instinct.
Guilt for breaking a social rule, and anger at seeing someone else break a rule, are just parts of that.
@maxdancona,
I disagree.
I've met many humans who would be dead beyond belief without society's intrusion - Never met an animal that couldn't fend for itself.
If 'intelligence' equated to 'independent' survival dynamics/mechanisms - Guess what.....?
Monkeys.....adios.
@mark noble,
That isn't true at all Mark.
Social animals (honey bees, ants) are the most obvious answer. A single honey bee doesn't last very long.
Other primates need to be in groups. Chimpanzees that are in captivity without contact with other chimpanzees have horrible symptoms of mental illness including head-banging behavior. See
http://awionline.org/lab_animals/biblio/tou-roge.htm
It is similar with elephants. Elephants in captivity that are isolated from other elephants show signs of mental distress. See
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21191847
Human beings are fairly typical with other animals in this respect.
The animals can't be blamed for doing what animals do. It's humans, as enablers, needing some education and training, to curb the killing that goes on.
@edgarblythe,
Really? You think that animals are any better than humans?
- Dolphins kill porpoises for sport.
- Cuckoos force other birds to feed and car for their young by force.
- Ants have brutal wars with each other where kill entire colonies and they take slaves.
- Penguins buy sex from penguin prostitutes.
- Chimpanzees commit rape.
- Wasps paralyze tarantulas, lay their eggs the body and keep them as living prisoners until the young eat them from the inside.
Humans can't be blamed for doing what humans do. And compared to other animals, the humans come off looking pretty good.
Humans are just one of many of the species of sometimes brutal animals living on this planet. We are no worse than any other species.
@edgarblythe,
Quote:It's our duty to finish them off?
We didn't have anything to do with 99.999+ % of the extinctions. **** happens, meteors, ice ages, evolution of better competitors, etc.
We have been doing pretty well against some though, polio viruses, black plague bacteria, small pox, etc. And we didn't shed a single tear over them..
(Mmmmm, On Mickey D break)
This thread is about domesticated animals that people do not control and subsequently kill too much wild life. You people can revel in extinctions and point out bad acts of non domesticated animals, if you like. That does not in my book make it okay let it go in cases where we have control.
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