Lovable Pets as Hunters

The point is that animals do what animals evolved to do. And animals (including humans) involved to kill other animals including their own kind.

Don't get down on the domesticated cat. It is just acting on the instincts that all cats have. Cats evolved to be killers, and unless you want to rid the world of cats (domesticated and wild) they will be killing things.

That is what cats do.

I don't really get why you think humans have any right or ability to interfere with such a basic fact of nature. This is especially true since human beings (like many other animals) evolved with a basic instinct to kill.

Nature isn't bad or good. It is just nature.

Cats do it when you let them do it. Not necessary or desirable. What is so hard about that?

By preventing a cat from doing what it is in its nature, aren't you being cruel? Instead of living with the cat with mutual respect, you are trying to take away the very thing that it was born to do.

What right do you have to do this to a cat?

They are just acting according to nature. Cats evolved as killers, and most cats like to kill things. If you don't like how acts are, then you shouldn't get a cat.

This happens all of the time when no humans are around. It is the way that nature works. In this case, humans were filming it... do you think that they should have interfered?

I don't think this is undesirable. It is the way that life works.

While you could never pummel me into submission, it is obvious you have to have the last word. You got it, dude.

The difference is, no one is feeding the lions cans of catfood to keep their population replenished even as the population of the prey species dwindles nearly to zero.

What prey species are you talking about that is dwindling to zero because of domestic cats?

No Edgar I insist. You take the last word.

In the case where it's domestic cats doing the hunting, the prey species whose populations are nearing zero are all the species of birds that are going extinct.

Normally in nature, when you have a predator-prey system (such as cats and birds), a dramatic drop in the prey population leads to a dramatic drop in the predator population, because the predators have nothing to eat. That's the dynamic that controls the wild lion population and keeps it from growing out of control and wiping out the species it preys on.

But the case of domestic cats is not analogous to the case of wild lions. Domestic cats and the various birds they are wiping out do not model a standard predator-prey system, because humans interfere with the level of the cat population, propping it up by feeding the cats. Normally the near extinction of the birds would bring the number of cats down as well. But we humans are interfering with that natural process, keeping cat levels high, and consequently wiping out the birds. So we are responsible for the birds' extinctions.

You make a good argument for some environments. I will accept that in an environment that is not adapted for domestic cats, they can cause a problem with native species that have no defenses against these predators. I was just reading about New Zealand which had just such a problem.

But I don't think your arguments apply to the US, or to Europe. Domestic cats have been part of the environment in Boston (where I live) since the 1600's. We still have abundant bird and rodent life. Domestic cats have been in Europe for more than a thousand years. The other species are adapted and live with domestic cats as they have for centuries.

I only half agree with your predator-prey argument. Sure, domestic cats have a steady food supply that is not dependent on the prey population. But these cats are limited, to a fairly small number, by the desires of humans.

Around here, there are fewer than one cat per house (with many houses having no cats). And, the range of these cats is limited to places populated by humans (you don't see domesticated cats in wilderness areas unless they are feral... in which case they are now part of the predator-prey cycle).

I think that in special cases, in environments where that for some reason have not adapted to cats... or where there is a species that is endangered, that domestic cats could be curtailed.

But in much of the world domestic cats are a natural part of the environment as they have been for centuries. The environment around them is adapted to work and nature does just fine with cats in the mix.

By 'Society's intrusion' I mean technology, industry, power, transportation, distrubution, etc - Take all these advancements out of the equation and it's game-over for most.
And it is true.

True, (assuming you mean 'people'). I'd say 'tell that to PETA', but they'd be happy for that to happen.

I don't see how humans are any different than any other species in this regard. Humans live just fine without modern technology, industry or power etc.

If you raise an animal in a human house being used to luxuries like canned food, safe shelter and a controlled environment... that animal will have a hell of a time surviving in the wild.

Same thing for humans. They obviously lived and prospered when they were hunter/gatherers living in caves. If you take an individual human used to living with modern luxury, she will have trouble living in the wild sane as any domesticated animal.

What?

In 'what' regard?
All life is valuable - And everything that exists (Which equates to EVERYTHING) is of equal value.

Mark, if you find termites in your house... what do you do?

No termites in Wales - But do I clean surfaces of bacteria/viruses etc? Yes - I destroy THAT which would do so to me.
I ignore flies (open a window, light a jostick - they leave), catch and relocate spiders (Missus hates them)(Never put a/an housespider outdoors, btw - It's as good as dead, once done).

Well Mark, you and I are different.

This year, I had ants in my house. I put down a series of ant poisons. Ant poison works as advertised; it is designed to kill slowly so that the ants that find the poison can scoop it up and bring it back to the colony. That way you don't only kill the foraging ant, but you can kill the queen and hopefully her offspring as well.

I haven't seen a single ant in weeks.

A couple of years ago I had at least two mice in my house (I know this because I caught them in spring traps). The exterminator came and fixed that problem with poison. There are now no signs of any rodents.

We have also had mosquito spraying in my area (Massachusetts) because scientists detected Eastern Equine Encephalitis (a disease with serious health risks to humans). This doubtlessly killed millions of mosquitos. I didn't directly participate in this mass killing... but as a citizen I approve of it.

I value human life far more than I value the life of rats, ant, mosquitos or even gorillas. I don't see any moral problem with this.

This is a case in which I prefer spring traps over poison. That warfarin they usually lets the critter crawl off into the wall spaces to die. They don't smell good.

For what it's worth, I find that cinnamon sprinkled on ant trails and gathering places works just fine. They don't die; they just go away. Doesn't smell all that bad, either. I've no problem with killing them either, when they are a problem, but you don't have to clean up the bodies with cinnamon.

If you want rid of ants - 1 tablespoon of sugar dissolved in 400ml of beer.
place on plate/saucer near ants.

Nest gone within 24hrs.
Only a few fatalities from drowning.

Ask me what takes place, stage by stage - It's my own research and the narrative is astounding.

Each of the creatures you named - Could have killed you - I would (Not the ants) have done similar.
The value I have does not stop at organic-based lifeforms either - I believe ALL things are energy-based and thus alive (Not necessarily conscious, btw).

You care for those you so please - I'll value everything.