0
   

HERE'S A TIP--DON'T EXPECT MONEY FROM STRANGERS

 
 
Setanta
 
Reply Sun 1 May, 2016 11:56 am
In light of a recent discussion, i thought people might find this interesting:

Is it time to end tipping?

There's a link to listen to the story as broadcast, too.
 
chai2
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2016 12:52 pm
@Setanta,
While I appreciate the article, and am in agreement of paying servers more and eliminating the necessity of tipping, it still doesn't address the issue of Right Now.

People who want to end tipping consistently put the cart before the horse.

The laws, implementation of the laws, ensuring the fairness of what wage is being considered and many more aspects, must all be put into place Before tipping can stop.

It would be catastrophic to the finances of people who depend on tips to suddenly be faced with no tips without the proper alternative in place.

People who live in a culture where tipping is the norm, and who themselves refuse to tip, are ignorant, short sighted, stupid, cheap and selfish.

They somehow think that if tomorrow tipping stopped, everything would just suddenly change overnight, and people who one day needed their tips as part of their earnings, will simply be all right somehow. Worse yet are those who simply don't care that people who depend on tips may enjoy their jobs as well as need them. I hear comments like "Well, they can just go do something else." or the like. Or even the worst of "just don't tip them, I don't care"

What is it that so many people don't understand that the solution has to be in place and totally implemented before the practice of tipping can stop?
chai2
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2016 12:54 pm
@chai2,
Oh.

That silly poll at the end of the article?

Who came up with those half backed choices?

Maybe, but only if people get paid more? Jesus wept.


Is it time to end tipping?
No, it is a reward for good service.
Yes, I hate feeling guilty when I don't tip.
Maybe, but only if people get paid more.
Vote
View Results
chai2
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2016 12:59 pm
@chai2,
Ok, everyone from a country that doesn't tip can now come on and start beating the dead horse how they don't tip and don't agree with it and how it's a stupid practice. This, even though you live in another country, maybe even an ocean away, and will probably never even come here.

0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2016 01:00 pm
@chai2,
Did you listen to the program?
chai2
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2016 01:27 pm
@ehBeth,
I absolutely did.

It's in Canada, who in general (from the view of an American) has a lot of confusion and resentment about the practice of tipping.

It speaks on One restaurant who has eliminated tipping, and has done so with the obvious solution of raising prices. Good points were made about the fact certain items price increased more than other. Personally, I think the cost of alcoholic beverages would be prime for bearing a lot of the burden for price increase. If a person wants a drink, they will pay. Also, the percentage increase of let's say appetizers and desserts could be inched up without much effort. In additon, the percentage of the price with things like coffee drunk at the end of the meal. I'd say it's smart to raise all the "withs" rather than the main meal, then raise the cost of the meal slightly/moderately.

So this is based on the experience of one restaurant, acting voluntarily. Servers have a choice to work there is they are hiring, and are accepted, or many other places.

At the end of the audio, it's stated they are talking about this as a process maybe stretching over 15 to 20 years.

Yet, back to my original posts, people who dislike tipping and think servers should just get paid more, seem to expect that they should be able to stop putting money down on the table, and somehow the server will just suddenly be working for someone that will notice this, and pay them more.

Until I realized the audio was from Vancouver, I was actually surprised by the comments of people in the beginning. People just being cheap, or talking of tips of 10% etc.

In the U.S. a restaurant can of course choose to pay servers more, and either increase the cost of the meals, make servings smaller, or figure out some other way to make it work. However, if an all around goal of eliminating tipping is desired, it will take legislation that will take years to push through. Until it is proposed and goes through the entire process, tipping would need to stay in place.
Real Music
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2016 01:37 pm
@Setanta,
Ending tips can be a huge loss in wages to tip earners. I have heard the arguments that if the employer paid their employees more, that there will be no need for tipping. What some people don't understand is that tip earners tips could make up to as little as 10 percent of their total income to as much as 70 percent of their total income. The amount of tips depend on what industry you work in. It depends on what profession you work in. It depends on what city or area you work in. It also depends on how individually skillful and hard working you are in earning tips

Maybe an employer could increase salaries to make up the difference for the low tip earners no longer making tips. I just can't see employers increasing salaries to make up the difference for high tip earners no longer making tips. Remember, most tips are voluntary as it should be.

Now in the case of mandatory tips that is an entirely different issue. Mandatory tips should be banned. Automatically adding a tip onto somebody's bill is ridiculous and should be banned. Tips should always be optional. Tips should never be mandatory. I don't believe in banning voluntary tips, simply because it is voluntary. I do believe that mandatory tips should be banned.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2016 01:48 pm
@chai2,
The piece was not about Canada.

They were talking about Danny Meyers - in New York City - as one of the American restaurateurs that has banned tipping .

The feature was not about the Canadian experience where tipping starts at 20% and goes up from there. The banning tipping movement has not come here - though some researchers who study it work here.

It is interesting how different everyone's experiences of this are. When I worked in the service industry in a tourist town, it was everyone's fear that they'd get a table of Americans as they were known for only tipping on alcohol - never on food. I know they're better now but I still instinctively check what Americans leave as a tip when I go out with them, in case I have to top it up.
chai2
 
  0  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2016 03:08 pm
@ehBeth,
Relistening to the audio, the beginning comments were "thoughts on tipping from the streets of Vancouver"...the first woman saying "I don't feel I should have to pay more than I am already." She's saying this with the disconnect that (a) what is on her check is not going to the server at all and (b) you would be paying more lady, if the servers wages go up to what is decent. Oh, or (c) I don't care how little the servers make. I don't want to pay more for my meal, and I don't want to make sure the server makes enough, and that the owner can make a necessary profit. I just want to go in and eat and pay the same. The owner should just take money out of his pocket and pay his servers more, and probably go out of business because I'm unwilling to spend more for a meal.

It also stated that "Recently some restaurants in Canada and in the US have started to try out a No Tipping Business Model"
The person speaking in the piece is Mike Von Massow, Associate Professor at the University of Guelph, in Canada. The audio is from CBC radio.

BTW, the "tipping fatigue" Von Massow speaks of, using as an example going to pay for something an seeing a tip line on the screen and thinking "Oh. I'm supposed to tip here?" That must be a Canadian viewpoint, because an American can ignore that with no guilt whatsoever if they don't feel it's a tipping situation.
As far as I'm concerned, it's just a gimmick used to catch low hanging fruit. Most people know it's not a tipping situation and ignore it. An occassional person inexperienced in tipping may leave something.
When I listened to that part, I was thinking "huh?"

In fact, the word "guilt" appears a couple of times during the audio, all spoken by people from Canada.
I don't think that's the thought process for most Americans, tipping out of guilt. I know it's not for me. Again, it may be in the thoughts of someone not from the US.

"Now this idea of not tipping is a particularly hot idea right now because of an American businessman named Danny Meyer..." Meyer owns restaurants both in and outside of NYC. Some are restaurants were people would usually tip. Others, like Shake Shack, which are all over, is not a tipping type place.

Von Massow says, when talking about Meyer introducing non tipping to a select NYC establishment(s) "we need to be a little bit careful here because (a) They're high end restaurants and (b) there's some novelty about being first. People are going there for the experience. It's another reason to go to one of Danny Meyers restaurants.

Von Massow goes on to say other restaurants (doesn't say where) are trying this, and "that for many it can actually be a relief to be excused from being required to tip."

That does NOT sound like an American at all. Seriously. Yeah, the restaurant they are specifically talking about is in NYC. It's probably picked up business because this is a novelty, and at a high end restaurant it might sway someone to try it, especially if it's being promoted no tipping here.

Sure it's anecdotal, but as someone who has lived in at least 6 different distinct areas/cities in the US, I can say I have never had anyone express any sort of "relief" at suddenly knowing you don't have to tip at a particular place.

NYC is a tourist attractions to people all over the world. Maybe it's a relief to tourists coming from a place without tipping habits, but I would seriously venture any Americans, beyond thinking, "wow, I didn't tip, but the meal price made up for it" are feeling any sort of mental or emotional relief.

So yeah, ok, it was an article that included a NYC restauranteur, presented on a Canadian radio stations, getting opinions from Canadians, hosted by a Candidan with a Candian guest...saying things that Americans in general wouldn't identify with.

So, not meaning this rudely, what was your point asking me if I'd listened? It was clear they are talking about one, or a few out of God knows how many restaurants that has eliminated tipping, and how they are accomplishing this.

They also said this is something that may take 15 to 20 years.

Yet, in other threads about tipping, people who are opposed to it never address how long it would take to eliminate it or that, one way or another they are going to pay.
The general feeling seems to be they should be able to just say "I don't want be responsible for paying someone's salary" and other reasons, and just stop tipping today. Lip service is given to "servers should be making a fair wage".

Well, they should. Your just stopping tipping without solutions in place is not going to help, it's going to hurt.

My advice to anyone, living or visiting the U.S. is to lobby for changes in how servers are paid, but continue to tip your servers as we are living in the world of right now.

I have to laugh at people who say they don't want to tip for service that is not stellar. Well what do you think you'd be doing if your server was being paid a proper wage, and the cost of your meal goes up accordingly?

The mother of a good friend of mine used to say "It all costs the same."

Yes, it does. In the end, one way or another, it all costs the same.

0 Replies
 
chai2
 
  3  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2016 03:17 pm
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:


It is interesting how different everyone's experiences of this are. When I worked in the service industry in a tourist town, it was everyone's fear that they'd get a table of Americans as they were known for only tipping on alcohol - never on food. I know they're better now but I still instinctively check what Americans leave as a tip when I go out with them, in case I have to top it up.


Where in the world were these Americans from?

There is nowhere I know of where a tip would be left on booze, but not the food.

That's extremely weird.



TomTomBinks
 
  2  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2016 05:24 pm
@chai2,
think about how the percentage of tips has increased over the years. 10% used to be standard, then it went to 15% and now 20% or more. Who decides what is customary? What it comes down to is the restaurant owner defers wages (and responsibility) to the customer. The owners use the cop out of "If they're good servers they'll get good tips, if not, they need to find other work" That is not true at all. Tipping is so ingrained that I think most people tip as a matter of course and don't tie it to service at all. I tend to tip 15 - 20% regardless of service and if the service is exceptional I tip more. I do this without thinking because it's "customary". The only time I ever think about it is when the service is horrible, then when it's time to pay the bill I think "Why am I leaving a tip at all?", But I do anyway.
chai2
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2016 05:50 pm
@TomTomBinks,
TomTomBinks wrote:

Who decides what is customary?


Apparantly we, as a society decide, as I haven't been issued any written updates to a manual I don't have.

Customs change.
TomTomBinks
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2016 06:20 pm
@chai2,
I'll answer my own question. The restaurant industry decides what is "customary" by the percentage of the automatic gratuity they impose in certain situations. (Parties of 12 or more, catering, etc.).
chai2
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2016 06:26 pm
@TomTomBinks,
False. The automatic gratuity imposed in some situation follows the custom of the moment as to what is being given.

It would be short sighted to think a relatively uncommon thing to change the custom as a whole.
chai2
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2016 06:38 pm
@chai2,
Here is a more complete answer. I'm sure there are even more considerations than this.

http://www.denverpost.com/headlines/ci_23778895/what-is-protocol-tipping-20-percent-isnt-too

"Who decided that 20 percent was the new standard tip?" That was a question I heard on the radio awhile back while fighting traffic to get to work. As a restaurant worker for the better part of the last 15 years, I feel qualified to answer this question, as well as the larger question of, "Why do we tip at all?"

And then there is the follow-up question: "Is it servers or restaurants or customers who decide the standard tip?" My answer is simple: "Yes." There are multiple reasons for the increase in the standard tip percentage. The two most important are the increase in the cost of living and the increased expectations of service.

The cost of living has increased nearly tenfold since 1950. The cost of a meal at a casual-dining restaurant, however, has only increased by sevenfold in that time. That means that for a server to have the same standard of living, the tip percentage has to have increased about 40 percent from what it was in 1950. Since the standard tip in 1950 was 10 percent, that means that it needs to have increased by about 4 percent to provide the same standard of living.

If this were the only factor, then a standard tip of 15 percent would be just dandy. However, this is not the only factor that has increased the standard tip percentage.


In addition to the change in the relationship between the cost of living and the cost of a meal, the expectations customers have for their servers have changed. People tend to forget that restaurants are selling two products: food and service. In 1950, it was not uncommon for a server to have a section of eight or 10 tables. Service was prompt and efficient, and as long the meal came out quickly and correctly, everyone was happy. This means that in 1950, each table was paying for 10 percent of a server's time. In 2010, however, customers expect much more.

Servers are now expected to refill drinks before they are half-empty, clear dishes as soon as they are used, serve multiple courses, check back frequently, and provide pleasant small talk. All of these things mean that servers have less time for other tables. As a result, restaurants have scaled back the size of a server's section to three or four tables. That means that customers today are purchasing 20 percent of a server's time. Since each server only has so much time in an hour, and the demand for that time has increased, the price paid must increase, too — in this case, in the form of an increased tip. If a 10 percent tip purchased 10 percent of a server's time in 1950, then in order to purchase 20 percent, the tip must increase to 20 percent as well.

Actually, when you factor in the increase in the cost of living versus the cost of a meal, servers should be making nearly 30 percent.

"Why tip at all?" you may ask. This, too, I can answer: to keep the cost of a meal down. Paradoxically, by tipping servers, customers help lower the cost of a meal. As I mentioned before, restaurants sell food and service. The price on the menu covers the cost of the food (as well as other costs, like the facility, kitchen staff, power, etc.); the tip covers the cost of service.

So, the next time you complain about the expectation of a 20 percent tip, remember that you are paying less for your server's time than your grandfather did, and by doing so you are keeping the cost of your meal down as well.
roger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2016 06:44 pm
@chai2,
Their idea seems that as cost of living increases, so should the percentage. Actually, as the cost of meals increase, so does the dollar amount of the tip even though the percentage remains constant.

Still, state sales tax authorities also like the theory. They will tell you that a growing population requires more services. Sure, but that larger population ensures a greater number of people paying the tax.
TomTomBinks
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2016 06:53 pm
@chai2,
The tip percentage keeps rising and the primary beneficiaries are the restaurant owners. I have to think they're making these decisions. Otherwise it would be customers are leaving larger and larger tips over time? Why? Do they grow accustomed to leaving a certain percentage and then after a few years decide to top themselves? Are people becoming more generous over the years? Is eating at a restaurant so crazy cheap that people are throwing some extra money around?
How did this happen? Why does being a food server not qualify as regular work like other jobs? In most states there is a separate minimum for food servers and other "tipped" jobs. These workers have to meet the same qualifications as other kinds of workers, they have to get there on time, present a certain appearance, have good language skills, be personable, have a certain level of proficiency at math and operating a cash register, have a good work ethic, etc. how do they not get at least minimum wage?
I'm sorry to rant but this subject really burns me up. The restaurant owners act like they're doing the servers a favor by allowing them to work for them.
chai2
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2016 06:56 pm
@roger,
But the server experiences the same cost of living increase in the running of their lives.
In the workplace they are assigned less tables, 4 or 5, as opposed to 8 or 10 in the past. They are expected to spend about twice and much time with a table today than in the 1950's.

If they were getting 10% tips from 10 tables, that equals a 20% tip from 5 tables.

Disregarding for a moment the cost of living increases...

10 tables spending $10 each equals $100 and at a 10% tip equals $10 in tips
5 tables spending $10 each equals $50 and at a 20% tip equals $10 in tips.

As stated in the article, the cost of a restaurant meal has increased 7 times....The cost of living has increased 10 times.

A 20% tip is a bargain.

Please reread a cut and paste of a portion of the article below...

The cost of living has increased nearly tenfold since 1950. The cost of a meal at a casual-dining restaurant, however, has only increased by sevenfold in that time. That means that for a server to have the same standard of living, the tip percentage has to have increased about 40 percent from what it was in 1950. Since the standard tip in 1950 was 10 percent, that means that it needs to have increased by about 4 percent to provide the same standard of living.

If this were the only factor, then a standard tip of 15 percent would be just dandy. However, this is not the only factor that has increased the standard tip percentage.


In addition to the change in the relationship between the cost of living and the cost of a meal, the expectations customers have for their servers have changed. People tend to forget that restaurants are selling two products: food and service. In 1950, it was not uncommon for a server to have a section of eight or 10 tables. Service was prompt and efficient, and as long the meal came out quickly and correctly, everyone was happy. This means that in 1950, each table was paying for 10 percent of a server's time. In 2010, however, customers expect much more.

Servers are now expected to refill drinks before they are half-empty, clear dishes as soon as they are used, serve multiple courses, check back frequently, and provide pleasant small talk. All of these things mean that servers have less time for other tables. As a result, restaurants have scaled back the size of a server's section to three or four tables. That means that customers today are purchasing 20 percent of a server's time. Since each server only has so much time in an hour, and the demand for that time has increased, the price paid must increase, too — in this case, in the form of an increased tip. If a 10 percent tip purchased 10 percent of a server's time in 1950, then in order to purchase 20 percent, the tip must increase to 20 percent as well.
0 Replies
 
TomTomBinks
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2016 06:57 pm
@chai2,
Good info, thanks.
0 Replies
 
chai2
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2016 07:01 pm
@TomTomBinks,
TomTomBinks wrote:

Is eating at a restaurant so crazy cheap that people are throwing some extra money around?



Apparantly so, since as stated, the cost of living has increased 10 times, and the cost of a restaurant meal only 7 times.

0 Replies
 
 

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