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American troops to be pulled out of Grermany

 
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Aug, 2004 08:30 am
panzade
Cheaper to house troops on foreign soil than the US? Have you looked at the value of the $ verses the Euro lately. In addition the dollars spent by our troops and the funds spent by our government if spent in the states would benefit our economy not the Germans. In addition I doubt that the cost of a military base in the US is more expensive to maintain than one in Germany.

As for alliances why must we have troops stationed on foreign soil inorder to maintain alliances. Have you ever heard of diplomacy? You must remember it as a concept of the pre-Bush years.
0 Replies
 
Grand Duke
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Aug, 2004 08:38 am
panzade wrote:
We also left thousands of yanks in your cemetaries. May they rest in peace.


True. I jest not at anyone's casualties of war.

I'm sure we don't need the missiles anymore though.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Aug, 2004 08:39 am
au1929 wrote:
Have you ever heard of diplomacy? You must remember it as a concept of the pre-Bush years.



Priceless line, Boss, thanks . . .
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Aug, 2004 08:50 am
Setanta wrote:
As i have stated, those calling themselves the Libertarian Party do not nearly represent even a significant portion of those who identify themselves as Libertarians. If you wished to associate yourself with the Libertarian Party, you would at least know the agenda of the impotent political organization of your choice.

There is orthographic subtlety involved here. "Libertarians" (capital L) are those who wish to associate with the Libertarian Party. "libertarians" (small l) are free-market, civil-liberties kind of liberals, as the word "liberal" was defined everywhere in the 19th century, and still is defined in Europe. (Not sure about Canada.) The latter category is much broader and contains many more moderates, as you correctly point out.(Details here.)

For the record, I consider myself a small-l libertarian and a capital-I Independent. I have read the LP's political platform, and I don't necessarily wish to associate myself with them. That makes two reasons why I don't understand your calling me on my alleged failure to know their agenda.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Aug, 2004 08:54 am
Those whom you ID as "small l libertarians" cannot necessarily be characterized as you suggest. Many of them object to paying taxes, and claim that currency issued by the Federal Reserve is illegal. Some have tried to make a case in Federal courts that they cannot be taxed because of the issue of monetary control by the Federal Reserve. I am suggesting that there is world of difference between how you choose to define the "small l libertarians" and how those whom i have met in my life see themselves. As you introduced this topic, i thought it odd to have you telling me, or anyone else, at your distance, what constitutes a libertarian, miniscule or majescule. I suggest you're talking through your hat.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Aug, 2004 09:01 am
panzade wrote:
Besides, having troops throughout the world makes it easier to cycle forces quickly to hot spots, not to speak of a deterrence to terrorism. And it costs less to move them.

True, but Germany is now pretty far away from any potential hotspots. Until the 1980s, the distance was just a couple dozen miles. This change in hot-spot geography must be reflected in the deployment of troops somehow.

panzade wrote:
Besides tearing up old alliances is not a smart move in the realpolitik world.

The USA under George Bush Junior does have a problem with the way it tears up old alliances, but the withdrawal of troops from Germany isn't part of it. The complaints about US withdrawal are not a Germany-wide phenomenon. It is localized around the bases being left, and much of it happens to establish a bargaining position for aid from Germany's federal government.
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panzade
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Aug, 2004 09:03 am
Harty Har...

Let me see...what did the Teddy Bear say?

Oh yeah..Walk softly but carry a big stick. Diplomacy without a stick is what Chamberlain espoused.( Puhleeze, no inference to WW II is meant).
But I agree 100% .Bush has killed all our diplomatic endeavors and bringing the troops home is the coup de grace.
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Aug, 2004 09:20 am
panzade said
Quote:
Oh yeah..Walk softly but carry a big stick. Diplomacy without a stick is what Chamberlain espoused.( Puhleeze, no inference to WW II is meant).


I don't know who or what this was directed at. However, in what way is keeping troops in Germany a big stick? Against whom? You reference to Chamberlain and I suppose appeasement has no relevance.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Aug, 2004 09:26 am
Setanta wrote:
Those whom you ID as "small l libertarians" cannot necessarily be characterized as you suggest. Many of them object to paying taxes, and claim that currency issued by the Federal Reserve is illegal.

So did the "free-market, civil-liberties kind of liberals, as the word 'liberal' was defined everywhere in the 19th century". After all, they covered a spectrum from William Godwin on the anarchistic side to John Stuart Mill on the "modern liberal" side. That's at least as broad a spectrum as you find among 21st century libertarians.

Setanta wrote:
I am suggesting that there is world of difference between how you choose to define the "small l libertarians" and how those whom i have met in my life see themselves.

It's not how I choose to define the term -- it's how the term is commonly defined, as you could easily find out with a Google search, or by reading the Wikipedia article I pointed you to in my earlier post. As we both said, the spectrum of libertarians is fairly broad. It might well be broad enough to cover the people you've met as well as the people I've been talking about. It is also possible that your view of libertarians is compromised by sampling error and careless attribution. Your association of LaRouche with {L,l}ibertarians suggests as much.

Setanta wrote:
I suggest you're talking through your hat.

Unlike you, I usually have no interest in using disagreements on issues as an opportunity to sneer at the person I disagree with. Your attempt to do so is hereby ignored.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Aug, 2004 09:43 am
Ignore to your hearts content, Thomas. That wasn't a sneer. It was however, motivated by the frequency with which you arrive here to tell Americans what's going on politically in a nation about which you patently know only what you read. As it happens, i visited the Wikipedia article on another occassion long before you linked it here. In reading it, i was struck by the extent to which the authors seem to suffer from the same conditon which afflicts you--that all one needs to know about such a topic can be found in print. People who identify themselves as Democrats and Republicans in this country do not necessarily hew to the party platform. How much less likely is this to be with those who identify themselves as something so amorphously defined as libertarian.

I can only devoutly hope that you do ignore me in future.
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Aug, 2004 10:01 am
Setanta wrote:
I can only devoutly hope that you do ignore me in future.

You've got a deal.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Aug, 2004 10:02 am
Good
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panzade
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Aug, 2004 10:09 am
Au, in retrospect I have to agree...what was I thinking? Chamberlain has no bearing on the subject. I still think diplomacy is toothless without the forces to give it impetus and who knows when the Balkans will flare up again? The value of the dollar? I don't know... the cost of building bases would seem to offset the lower cost of established housing....all I know is that I don't mind being corrected of my misconceptions.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Aug, 2004 10:23 am
panzade

Regarding the cost of building bases. There are I believe more than enough bases around the nation that have been closed in recent years that can be refurbished and reactivated. In addition there is no doubt that those communities economically hurt by their closing will be more than happy to have them back.
0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Aug, 2004 10:26 am
Oky Doke...well I freed a balloon and it got blown to pieces...but I haven't given up...gonna do some investigatin' and see if bringin the boys home is a Bush coup...or crap.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Aug, 2004 11:04 am
Quote:
US Military to Keep European Command in Germany

http://www.dw-world.de/dwelle/allgemein/bilder_show/0,3772,96976_1,00.jpg
Wald says new troops will come to Germany

The US plans to maintain a key military presence in Germany even after it completes its troop restructuring. Three new brigades will come to Germany despite plans for a broad withdrawal of Cold War-era deployments.

Senior US commander General Charles Wald said the United States will keep its European Command in Germany, adding three new brigades -- a new, mobile brigade using lighter Stryker armored vehicles, a paratrooper brigade, and an expeditionary brigade. Each brigade will number between 3,000 and 5,000 troops.

"The real issue is not the percentage of troops leaving, so much as there will still be a significant capability left here, and it will be transformed to be more mobile, more light, and more responsive," Wald said at a news conference at European Command headquarters in Stuttgart.


Wald also said some bases in Germany, such as the Ramstein air base in the west of the country, would be expanded, despite plans to withdraw some 30,000 troops currently stationed here. Another base at Spangdahlem, home to two US F-16 squadrons, will remain as well, Wald said.

US President George W. Bush announced the withdrawal on Monday, as part of plans to completely restructure US military deployments around the world to better fight terrorism.


Stryker location to be decided

Wald said the location of the Stryker brigade still needs to be negotiated with the German government, though there are rumors that it will be based at the US training range near the Bavarian town of Grafenwöhr.


The withdrawal of thousands of soldiers from the two heavy divisions in Germany -- the 1st Armored based in Wiesbaden and the 1st Infantry based in Würzburg -- will not happen before 2006, so that the views of the German government can be heard, Wald said.

The news of the withdrawals caused dismay in many of the communities that evolved around the US army bases, as the livelihoods of many German residents depend on the soldiers' presence.

Source (with links to the broadcasted interview
0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Aug, 2004 11:12 am
So Walter, was sachs du? What's your take?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Aug, 2004 01:55 pm
panzade wrote:
So Walter, was sachs du? What's your take?


The same as before: we have learnt here to live without foreigntroops, so will our co-citizens in the southern states :wink:
0 Replies
 
Thok
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Aug, 2004 01:25 am
The analyse:

Move 'em out



Quote:
They've been icons of America's Cold War military posture for 50 years: thousands of Army soldiers and marines standing guard at the edge of the still-tense Korean demilitarized zone, making sure the North Korean Army knows that the path to Seoul is blocked by U.S. military might. But sometime in the next four years, those troops will be gone. Indeed, the process has already begun. This month, one brigade began heading to Iraq. The rest will move southward, out of the range of North Korean artillery, where they will become a different kind of fighting force.
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Web Extras

Making big waves

The era of the large-scale, permanent American presence in Asia and Europe may be approaching its twilight. Last week, President Bush announced a plan to pull back 70,000 of the 278,000 troops stationed in Germany, South Korea, and other overseas bases. Over the next decade, under this plan, those units would return to the United States and then begin a rotation of short stints in austere camps in places like Bulgaria or Uzbekistan--closer to the world's trouble spots.

In the hothouse environment of a national political campaign, Bush's proposal drew immediate fire. Democratic presidential nominee John Kerry and his allies condemned the plan as politically motivated, irresponsible, and ill-timed and said it would sow doubts about America's intentions rather than projecting strength; Republicans fired back that Kerry's own ideas are outdated. The rhetoric was perhaps inevitable, but in reality, the skirmishing is part of a much larger, longer, and more substantive argument about the future of the American military. And the outcome of that debate is likely to have a profound effect on how America projects its power in a rapidly changing world.

Bits of the Bush plan are already moving forward. The State Department has begun the complex negotiations over where, precisely, the new bases will be located. And, at least in Korea, the Pentagon has already begun moving personnel. On a small scale, sending troops from Korea to Iraq--and then home--replicates the Pentagon strategy in 1991, when hundreds of thousands of troops stationed in Germany went to fight in the Gulf War and then returned home to the United States when the fighting was over. Some administration officials believe the United States missed an opportunity to reorganize military bases when it drew down American forces in Europe by 240,000 in the years after that war. "If we were truly visionary, we would have done then what we are doing now," says Air Force Gen. Charles Wald, the deputy commander of America's European forces. "But better now than never."

In a broad sense, the Bush administration wants a military that is leaner and quicker. Although traditionally the U.S. Army has deployed in large divisions, today it emphasizes the brigade, a group of 3,000 to 5,000 soldiers. In some respects, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld's vision of transformation would make the entire Army more like the special operations forces, which function in small groups with light equipment. Such units have played a key role in Afghanistan and are on the front lines of the war on terror. Now, to ensure a lithe enough force to confront new enemies, Rumsfeld and top military leaders believe the Army must wean itself from massive, permanent, overseas bases. "We need to be in more places and better respond to the new threats," Wald says. The United States hopes to open a spartan base in southeastern Europe, perhaps in Romania or Bulgaria. Leaders also want a new facility in Azerbaijan to help respond to threats in the Caucasus region.


complete report
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Aug, 2004 04:43 am
U.S. News & World Report wrote:
Leaders also want a new facility in Azerbaijan to help respond to threats in the Caucasus region.


Mr. Wald contends that there is a threat in the Caucasus? How very odd. Are we to assume that the on-going fight between the Russians and Chechens constitutes a threat to us? Does Mr. Wald stay up nights worrying about the Ingusetians, or the Ossetians? This is PNAC-speak mascarading as competent military opinion. I find Mr. Wald's contention to be far too suspiciously aligned with the agneda of PNAC.
0 Replies
 
 

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