1. Compare Judaism and Christianity

anton bonnier wrote:

Very interesting discorse... however, I just wonder how anything concrete can come from discussion on Religion,. when the whole thing hinges on things like... Belief, Spirituality, faith, Myth, and the personal beliefs out side of the taught ones

Curiousity besets me.
What is your opposing viewpoint?
That is to say, "something concrete comes from" what?
Again, that is to say, what does your world view hinge upon?
If you are puzzled by religion, what is it that you are basing your world view upon?
Concretely?

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anton bonnier wrote:

Very interesting discorse... however, I just wonder how anything concrete can come from discussion on Religion,. when the whole thing hinges on things like... Belief, Spirituality, faith, Myth, and the personal beliefs out side of the taught ones

I don't know that anyone was looking for anything concrete to come of this discussion. If anything, its to help us understand various traditions, understand one another, and hopefully actually remove some of the "concrete" that separates us.

If only a couple of people learn something from it, I think it has been a worthwhile exercise. I, for one, have already learned some things about Jewish tradition and how it is actually viewed and observed in daily life that I probably wouldn't have learned from studying more formal Jewish texts, etc.

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Dauer.
Quote..
We are comparing two "institutionalized systems of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices." In the course of this discussion the opposing and like attitudes and practices will be illuminated. I am not answering primarily with my personal views but with the single or multiple views that best represent Judaism as a whole. un quote.

Thank you for your quote on religion, however the discription of the word, was on a whole in the abstract.
I think of two abstact artists who are debating their respective works, I doubt that either would understand the meaning of either ones work, but they would "believe" they were correct in what they were " teaching " each other about it. So how would anything better be achieved in this discusion, other than a interesting talk between " believers " .
So.. no. you hav'nt answered my question, but thank you for trying,and I will follow this thread with intrest to see if there is a answer. Perhaps I should add... acceptable to a unbeliever.

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I am curious, since the topic was brought up, I know that there are many different sects in Christianity, what are the different views of the sabbath and its role as a holiday? Are there any groups that make a big deal of it?

One thing about the Jewish sabbath and all Jewish holidays is that they begin at dusk and end at dusk. I think some minor fasts begin at dawn but that is not what is typical. So for a Jew the sabbath would begin Friday night and end Saturday night.

In reality the whole of the Jewish population is not very observant of the Sabbath and the best explanation I've seen for this is because it is such a challenge to the way most people live their lives. Otherwise observant Jews of other holidays may ignore Shabbat entirely or just light candles Friday night. Or they may just go to synagogue Friday night, when in reality the more important time to go is Saturday morning. This is troubling to me because to me this may be for the Jewish people the most essential of all holidays.

One of the things that the amount of commitment Judaism requires does is it creates a grass is greener mentality in some. So they try to grow similar grass. I'm not orthodox and I certainly see room for leeway but many throw out the baby with the bath water. This is the crisis for Judaism in contemporary times and the end of a long and possibly irrelevent rant. Many of these folks I have spoken of would disagree with me and I'm sure they would have good reasons to do so.

Getting back, I am asking about the Sabbath and its role in different Christian sects. I know that the few Christian individuals who have chosen to join this thread probably cannot speak for a large number of different groups, but whatever you can add would be appreciated. I remember reading Johnny Tremain in high school and at least back then, in Boston, the laws around the sabbath were much stricter.

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It's Johnny Tremaine and the Battle of the Cowpens and King's Mountain gave me a whole new perspective on history a thousand years or so ago when I read it.
Laughing

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In response to--

Getting back, I am asking about the Sabbath and its role in different Christian sects. I know that the few Christian individuals who have chosen to join this thread probably cannot speak for a large number of different groups, but whatever you can add would be appreciated.
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I'm living in the deep South, and speak from a Baptist viewpoint, but you can probably find five different personal beliefs within my church on what you should and shouldn't do on a Sunday...

Some Baptists won't go anywhere other than church on a Sunday. They don't want to cause others to have to work on Sunday...(But the overwhelming majority of members eat out after church as if this is as sacred as baptism...)

Some people are frowned upon if they work on Sundays, while others don't think anything of it.

Sunday is primarily set aside for worship and relaxation--you know, the Genesis scripture about ..."and on the seventh day, he rested..." and the Commandment "Keep the Sabbaoth Holy."

I think manual labor (lawn mowing) and such are still a little taboo in this area on Sundays.

When I was little, this was Big Business in my family. You had to have an active case of the whooping cough to miss church, and you pre-prepared the Sunday meal, so you weren't 'working' on Sunday. No housework was done on Sunday.

I don't know a single family that keeps these 'rules'.
There is a more casual service on Sunday nights, and a very casual gathering on Wednesday nights.

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Sofia wrote:

Some Baptists won't go anywhere other than church on a Sunday. They don't want to cause others to have to work on Sunday...(But the overwhelming majority of members eat out after church as if this is as sacred as baptism...)

Now this is a bit strange. When they are eating out, aren't they causing others to work (restaurant workers)? Very Happy

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Moishe3rd wrote:

G-d commands me not to answer the telephone; not to cook; not to use the car; not to use the computer; or even get involved with secular activities such as television and newspapers.
As Dauer said, I can only eat, drink, sleep, read, study, pray, spend time with my family, go for a walk, spend time with friends...

Moishe,
Interesting. What if you used the computer to study sacred texts, for example? That is not allowed? How could the rules disallow computers when they weren't around then. I mean, how would it specify that sacred texts in a book are okay, but sacred texts on a computer are not okay for Sabbath? What if I wanted to turn on my computer to print out sacred some texts to study, and it was Sabbath?

I realize the above may come off as nitpicky or something, but I am not trying to attack, I am genuinely interested in how the delineation would be made between sacred texts in a book vs. sacred texts on a computer CD for example. Interesting.

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extra medium wrote:

Sofia wrote:
Some Baptists won't go anywhere other than church on a Sunday. They don't want to cause others to have to work on Sunday...(But the overwhelming majority of members eat out after church as if this is as sacred as baptism...)

Now this is a bit strange. When they are eating out, aren't they causing others to work (restaurant workers)?

Absolutely! This caused quite a contretemps in my church circa 1978.
Some rallied and protested stores that were open on Sundays--but they tried to argue that eating out was somehow different... Shocked

Go figure. Hypocracy.

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Extra medium, the categories of work are based primarily around the types of work done on the mishkan, or tabernacle, in the desert. The word used there for work is also used for Sabbath work, and only in a few other places. They are as follows, separated by type of work here.

Quote:

Making bread:
1. Sowing a seed - Zoray'a
2. Plowing - Choraysh
3. Harvesting - Kotzayr
4. Making bundles - Omayr
5. Threshing - Dahsh
6. Winnowing - Zoreh
7. Separating - Borer
8. Milling / grinding - Tochayn
9. Sifting - Merakayd
10. Kneading - Lahsh
11. Baking - Ofeh / cooking - Bishul

Making Cloth:
12. Shearing wool - Gozez
13. Washing the wool - Libun
14. Combing the wool - Niputz
15. Dying the wool - Tzovay'ah
16. Spinning thread - Toveh
17. Setting up the loom - Oseh shtay batay nirin
18. Tightening the threads on the loom - Hansachat hanasechet
19. Weaving - Orayg
20. Undoing the weave - Betzi'ah
21. Tying knots - Koshayr
22. Untying knots - Matir
23. Sewing - Tofer
24. Tearing open a seam - Koray'ah

Making Leather:
25. Hunting - Tzad
26. Slaughtering an animal - Shechita
27. Skinning the animal - Hafshatat ha'or
28. Tanning the hide - Ibud ha'or
30. Making the leather for cutting - Sirtut
31. Cutting the leather - Chotaych

Miscellaneous:
32. Writing two letters - Ketivah
33. Erasing two letters - Mechikah
34. Building - Boneh
35. Taking down a building - Sotayr
36. Kindling a fire - Hav'arah
37. Putting out a fire - Kibu'i
38. "Striking with a hammer" = to put the finishing touch on an item - Makeh bepatish
39. Carrying from one domain to another - Hotza'ah

http://www.hillel.org/Hillel/NewHille.nsf/0/19604f8057c55db3852569430070d2c0?OpenDocument

In using a computer one is using electricity and there are a few issues. One is fire. Orthodox authorities say that electricity is like fire. Others disagree. Still, it is completing a circuit over and over and this is finishing an item. This is number 38. This is how computers are not allowed.

The best expression of the word melacha -- work -- I have heard is "creative work." On the 7th day God stopped creating, and we pull back from all activities of creating and altering around us, as defined by these categories.

There are loopholes. An observant family cannot cook food, but if they leave the stove on very low they can warm food. They can also get timers for their lights so that they are on when they need them and off later. But some will undo the light in their fridge so that they will not inadvertantly turn on a light by opening the door.

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extra medium wrote:

Moishe3rd wrote:

G-d commands me not to answer the telephone; not to cook; not to use the car; not to use the computer; or even get involved with secular activities such as television and newspapers.
As Dauer said, I can only eat, drink, sleep, read, study, pray, spend time with my family, go for a walk, spend time with friends...

Moishe,
Interesting. What if you used the computer to study sacred texts, for example? That is not allowed? How could the rules disallow computers when they weren't around then. I mean, how would it specify that sacred texts in a book are okay, but sacred texts on a computer are not okay for Sabbath? What if I wanted to turn on my computer to print out sacred some texts to study, and it was Sabbath?

I realize the above may come off as nitpicky or something, but I am not trying to attack, I am genuinely interested in how the delineation would be made between sacred texts in a book vs. sacred texts on a computer CD for example. Interesting.

Dauer is correct in his (?) answer.
The computer is an electrical appliance and the completion of a circuit, as noted, is one of the kinds of work that is forbidden on the Shabbos. Completing something is considered an act of creation.
Now, theoretically, one could leave one's computer or television on and read or watch it. But in the case of the computer, if you changed the screen, you would be causing electrical impulses to complete their circuits.
This would not be true of watching television, if you did not change anything, but there is also the idea of sanctifying the Sabbath which means that even if something is permitted, if it detracts or even unecessarily distracts from the spiritual sanctification of the Sabbath, then it is an activity that should be avoided.
Most rabbinical authorities consider television at any time something to be avoided, so, even though it might be legally (halachically) permitted on the Sabbath, as it is considered to be something "not good" in the first place, it should not be watched on the Sabbath. (There are many Orthodox families that do not have a television.)

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Rule-based thinking...and living and eating and loving and and...ad infinitum. There is such comfort and familiarity in it...You almost don't have to think...or feel...it all seems to be "taken care of" by "Rabinnical Authority" or somesuch "Higher POWER"...Yikes! I'm wearing out my quote marks marker.
Well! Off we go to a life of living by some one-elses rules.
Am I having fun yet?
Nyet?

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The other thing about using a computer to study a sacred text versus using a computer is that there are choices there, but the acceptable one is reading. The point I'm trying to get across is that the computer isn't necessary in order to perform the study. And, in fact, even the book isn't strictly necessary.

Eating, of course, is a necessity. And taking a sick child to a doctor - even during Shabbos - is fine because it's an emergency situation. But using a computer on Shabbos, rather than a book, to me that speaks of a convenience issue rather than a necessity or an emergency, so there would not be an exception made for it. Thanks Dauer and Moshe for the list and explaining it. :-D

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Chuck,

that's the thing. There is a huge emphasis in Judaism on thinking and understanding. This is why, in eras where there were so many who knew so little, the Jewish literacy rate was so much higher than the rest. At the same time, there is a respect for Divine Law.

In reality, in any situation, thought is required, only Jewish thought will be shaped differently. Concerns will be different. I don't see where you get absence of feeling. Judaism doesn't condemn feeling or emotions and, when they are for the right cause, they are a good thing.

Every occasion has laws that govern it. Every house has walls that define the space. That includes the Sabbath. As I said before, it looks harsh on paper. It is quite beautiful to experience such absolute rest.

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Chuckster wrote:

Rule-based thinking...and living and eating and loving and and...ad infinitum. There is such comfort and familiarity in it...You almost don't have to think...or feel...it all seems to be "taken care of" by "Rabinnical Authority" or somesuch "Higher POWER"...Yikes! I'm wearing out my quote marks marker.
Well! Off we go to a life of living by some one-elses rules.
Am I having fun yet?
Nyet?

Well, Dauer always gets here first, Laughing

but still, I want my say....
There is intense thinking and feeling that goes on - because it is in most people's nature; Man's nature, to question. And even more so to question authority.
So, one takes one of the 613 commandments decreed by G-d, the Big Rule Maker, and says "What the heck does that mean?"
And, after three thousand years, people are still asking the same question and refining the answer.
The thing is, they are writing it all down, and have been for a couple of thousand years.
So you get thousands and thousands of pages of commentary and discussion by thousands of different authorities written over thousands of years and still we question....
Yeah, it is great. It's kind of cool, actually.
And, as Dauer pointed out - you gotta serve somebody. It may be the devil or it may be the lord.... it may be your wife, or the building inspector, or the sergeant at arms, or the office manager, or the auto mechanic, or the policeman in the park, but you're gonna darn well live by somebody's rules.
G-d's are much more interesting than the Minnesota State Buidling Code (I'm a Contractor). Very Happy

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Thank you for your acceptance of my "playfulness". You both appear to be living examples of the tolerance and decency you espouse. Peace and best wishes.

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Alright. Since everyone's been considerate of everyone else I think it's safe to discuss the role of the messiah in Judaism and Christianity and how it differs and how it is similar. These differences seem to be the root of many other differences, but I do think this is something that had to be worked up to.

If anyone wishes to quote scripture for any reason, it may be best to say, "We understand this as..." or another like phrase.

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OK--

In my corner of Christianity, Christians accept that Christ was God as man.

(To start the ball rolling...)

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Well, the obvious is that Judaism does not consider Jesus to be the messiah. But Judaism also does not believe the messiah will be God as man. Nor will there be anything divine about the messiah according to this view. Rather, God will work through the messiah just as He did through others in the past. Some of the things that will happen according to Jewish tradition with the coming of the messiah:

world peace

ingathering of world Jewry

mitzvot will be inscribed on the heart, so they will become a part of our nature in some way.

rebuilding of the Temple in Jerusalem and reinstitution of sacrifices, but only thanksgiving as that will be all that will be needed.

etc.

There is some debate on some of these things mentioned above.

Another major difference is the Jewish take on the suffering servant. Judaism says it's the people of Israel, and not the messiah.

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So, Moishe, Jews expect the Messiah to be an obvious supernatural being?
( Editing to make sure you know this is a sincere question. There are lots of supernatural appearances in the Bible.)
And, what is mitzvot, please?

The return of Jews to Isreal and the rebuilding of the Temple are signs in my religion that the Second Coming is close.

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1. Compare Judaism and Christianity

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