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Evoloution and Humans: Does it stop?

 
 
krekmoney
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Nov, 2004 04:11 pm
I do believe that scientific advances help the world, there is no doubt about that. But I see a huge potential for abuse in the areas of gene therapy and stem cells. It is one thing to help people with debilitating diseases and another to create genetically manipulated offspring or alter people's physical properties. Take the field of plasic surgury for example. What once started as a field devoted to reconstructing the skin of deformed individuals or burn victims has now turned into a profession serving weathy perfectionists with vanity in mind. Such tremendous pressure is placed upon individuals to be asthetically perfect that they take extreme, sometimes even life threatening measures to look like their favorite movie stars. It is inevitable that this same thing will happen with advances in gene therapy and stem cells. You may think it is a small price to pay for the opportunity to cure diseases, but understand that we live in a capitalist socitey and not everyone will be able to afford these kinds of procedures. There will be a huge gap socially, physically and intellectually between those who can afford to take advantage of these procedures and those who cannot. It is just something to consider because I keep hearing about the positive advantages of persuing such research without any consideration for the possible negatives involved.
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Nov, 2004 08:49 am
So where are the negatives?
Ok, the rich get to go under the knife to look pretty and the poor get spared. Doesn't all the money going into the business help us learn more so that we can help those burn victims also? The cutting edge of technology has always been for the rich with benefits rolling down the the rest of the population when it is perfected. Electricity, telephones, TV, computers, broadband all followed this model. On the medical front, AIDS drugs is the best example. Now the rich can control the AIDS virus. In the future, all the developed world will and after that, all the world. Stem cells may give us insights into genetic conditions that we can cure or mitigate. Should we not research it because the rich will benefit first? Should we ignore it because a small percentage might use the results for less than ethical reasons while the majority benefit from the valid, positive uses of new medical developments? My personal view is no.
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Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Nov, 2004 10:02 am
Re: So where are the negatives?
engineer wrote:
Ok, the rich get to go under the knife to look pretty and the poor get spared. Doesn't all the money going into the business help us learn more so that we can help those burn victims also? The cutting edge of technology has always been for the rich with benefits rolling down the the rest of the population when it is perfected. Electricity, telephones, TV, computers, broadband all followed this model. On the medical front, AIDS drugs is the best example. Now the rich can control the AIDS virus. In the future, all the developed world will and after that, all the world. Stem cells may give us insights into genetic conditions that we can cure or mitigate. Should we not research it because the rich will benefit first? Should we ignore it because a small percentage might use the results for less than ethical reasons while the majority benefit from the valid, positive uses of new medical developments? My personal view is no.


Not to complain, but we are heading into the realms of politics here and though science is supposed to be politics-free but rarely ever is, we can at least keep it to a minimum.

The views all expressed here are all valid.

Evolution can only happen if there are natural selection pressures, and more importantly, beneficial mutations. While we can clearly see beneficial mutations in bacteria and viruses, this is only because they have such high rates of mutations compared to humans and because their genomes are so small.

Human beings have a huge genome with complicated gene interactions. The more complicated the gene interactions, the more devastating a mutation in any one gene can become.

In our evolution, we have reached a point where most mutations become harmful not to mention that mutation rates are so low. This is partially because our environment hasn't changed much. What could be perceived as harmful mutations might not be harmful, say, if the environment changed in a way to benefit such mutations.

Take for example dolphins. Scientists discovered that the speed and effortless manner in which dolphins glide through the water, is partially because of the way their skin sheds.

Now, there is a disease in mankind that means that skin sheds far too easily, made famous in that Channel Four documentary, "The Boy Whose Skin Fell Off". Now, granted, his form of the disease is a bit extreme compared to what dolphins shed but if he were to take the water he might have some advantage (if of course, he could breathe underwater).

Still, we don't know all we can about evolution. In fact, we don't know all we can about the genome, the transcriptome and the proteome. There's still far too much to discover and maybe, just maybe, we might see a new beneficial mutation yet.
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visk
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Nov, 2004 12:54 am
Re: So where are the negatives?
Wolf_ODonnell wrote:


In our evolution, we have reached a point where most mutations become harmful not to mention that mutation rates are so low. This is partially because our environment hasn't changed much. What could be perceived as harmful mutations might not be harmful, say, if the environment changed in a way to benefit such mutations.


So we've reached a point where mutation rates are low and beneficial mutations are non-existent. Can you truly say mutation rates were once higher and that mutations were more beneficial? Who says any beneficial mutations have ever occurred? I may not know a lot but I don't know of any real situations where beneficial mutations took place. I'm open to criticism on that.

But of course you have to say such things or else your Evolutionary beliefs collapse. I suppose that brings me to the real issue. As you can see I don't take too kindly to the Theory of Evolution. But thats not the subject here so maybe I won't continue it.

Anyway.
Thanks for reading this.
I hope i don't get killed for this Smile
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Einherjar
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Nov, 2004 12:41 am
Mutation rates are as high as they have ever been. (not counting births affected by special circumstances such as exposure to radiation)

There are so many examples of beneficial mutations I hardly know where to begin. First of all mutations resulting in resistance to certain chemicals have been observed in bacteria, and even in mosquitoes and flies. "Black panthers" are leopards with a mutation that causes their black rings to cover their entire furcoat. While this is selected against in the african lowlands because of lost camouflage, it is beneficial on the freezing tundra on the highest african mountains. This is a simple mutation. A species of birds was observed to change color from white to black in England as pollution colored the treetrunks black in the industrial age, and the species turned white again when pollution was brought under control.

Major selective pressure has not been applied to humans in recorded history, and since you will probably object to fossil evidence I can not point to any beneficial human mutations.

Please start another thread if you require more examples or have any further objections to evolutionary theory. I'll be happy to respond.
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chris56789
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2004 03:12 pm
Millions of years from now, we will look like aliens with big heads and eyes, with a more sleak body figure.
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2004 05:44 pm
chris56789 wrote:
Millions of years from now, we will look like aliens with big heads and eyes, with a more sleak body figure.


Probably not.
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visk
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2004 07:44 pm
Quote:
A species of birds was observed to change color from white to black in England as pollution colored the treetrunks black in the industrial age, and the species turned white again when pollution was brought under control.


The situation you are describing here appears to be the peppered moths. This example of beneficial mutation was disproved years ago. The guy glued moths to trees and faked the whole experiment.

As to the rest of your beneficial mutations list, they aren't mutations. Natural selection is going on here. It's more a case of different genetic traits already contained in the genes of the organisms baing brought out through natural selection. So no mutation, just certain genetic traits dominating depending on the environment.

Maybe a differnet thread is a good idea.
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chris56789
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Nov, 2004 01:00 am
rosborne979 wrote:
chris56789 wrote:
Millions of years from now, we will look like aliens with big heads and eyes, with a more sleak body figure.


Probably not.

When cave men were walking around back then, I bet they never thought their ancestors would look like almost hairless, stand up straight, more narrow jawed boned creatures like we do today, but it happened.
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Nov, 2004 08:33 am
chris56789 wrote:
rosborne979 wrote:
chris56789 wrote:
Millions of years from now, we will look like aliens with big heads and eyes, with a more sleak body figure.


Probably not.

When cave men were walking around back then, I bet they never thought their ancestors would look like almost hairless, stand up straight, more narrow jawed boned creatures like we do today, but it happened.


The chances that the next million years of human evolution will be like the last million years are not good. The variables have changed radically. We now have direct input into the process, and we love to tinker.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Nov, 2004 05:15 pm
The tinkering is what's going to get homo sapiens into big trouble.
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neil
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Nov, 2004 09:41 pm
I think humans will continue to change, perhaps for the worse, more often than for the better. Natural selection continues, mutations are likely escalating due to processed food by manufacturers who are more interested in profit than the long term effects of their products. Now we are adding unnatural gene changes, some of which will become significant parts of the genepool, even if some are bad. The bad is likely to continue many generations as we now have medical technology to keep defects alive until they reproduce. I am not optimistic for the hunderedth generation. Neil
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Nov, 2004 09:42 pm
neil, I agree.
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Nov, 2004 09:56 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
The tinkering is what's going to get homo sapiens into big trouble.


How do you know? It's never been done before.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Nov, 2004 09:59 pm
It's already being done as neil has described above. What the long term effects are nobody really knows or admits to knowing.
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Nov, 2004 10:19 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
It's already being done as neil has described above. What the long term effects are nobody really knows or admits to knowing.


Neil's statements are not entirely accurate. And I agree that nobody can foretell the future, but why assume things will be worse instead of better (as your original post stated)?

neil wrote:
I think humans will continue to change, perhaps for the worse, more often than for the better.


Ambiguous. Unsupported by evidence.

neil wrote:
Natural selection continues, mutations are likely escalating due to processed food by manufacturers who are more interested in profit than the long term effects of their products.


There is no evidence of mutation escalation due to processed foods.

neil wrote:
Now we are adding unnatural gene changes, some of which will become significant parts of the genepool, even if some are bad. The bad is likely to continue many generations as we now have medical technology to keep defects alive until they reproduce. I am not optimistic for the hunderedth generation. Neil


The "good" changes are just as likely to proliferate as the "bad", with the "good" perhaps even more likely to spread.

Just because someone is pessimistic about the human condition and our future, doesn't mean that counter productive genetics will suddenly appear in our gene pool. So far, nobody has sited any evidence that things are getting worse, or that they are likely to get worse. All I've heard so far is, people are bad tinkerers, companies only care about themselves, gene changes are bad and sh*t happens.

The genes are half good, not half bad.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Dec, 2004 11:47 am
Just looking at one area of bacteria survival speaks volumes for me. Humans are able to find defensive chemicals to battle some bacteria, but often times the bacteria becomes resistant to those chemicals, and they come out stronger. That's not to say, we humans shouldn't try to find cures, but nature has a way of 'survival of the fittest' in ways that impacts the future in ways we are unawares.
Your statment, "The "good" changes are just as likely to proliferate as the "bad", with the "good" perhaps even more likely to spread" is also unfounded. We just don't know.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Dec, 2004 11:48 am
"Even more likely" sounds like a "guess" to me.
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Dec, 2004 12:40 pm
Hi Cicerone,

cicerone imposter wrote:
"Even more likely" sounds like a "guess" to me.


Yes, which is why I said, "perhaps, even more likely".

Maybe I misinterpreted your (and Neil's) post, but what bothers me is when people who have a pessimistic view of human society and of scientific advancement in general, try to use that pessimism to "warn" of dire consequences for the future of human progress. If pessimism and fear are not the basiis for your predictions, then I apologize.

I tend to have an optimistic view if things as they are now, and for where I think we're going. I would make the argument that things are better now for the human race than they ever have been before (despite the fact that things aren't perfect), and that it's more likely than not that beneficial progress will continue despite the potential risks (based on observation and success of progress to date).
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Dec, 2004 12:57 pm
rosborne, I am an optimist like you; I have friends all around the world and in the US, and find 99 percent of people decent and loving people. I also find the fear-mongering of global warming to be unconvincing on the basis that this planet has gone through several ice ages, and we're still not 100 percent positive what we are experiecing now is only a cycle. On the other hand, I see no reason why humans cannot limit the polution of our environment by limiting the use of fossil fuels. Lastly, I honestly believe we are living in the best of times when we can communicate with people around the world instantly without incurring high cost, and travel half way around the world in one day. It's still in the first century of high tech and biotech as we know it. I'm sure we humans will find cures for many ailments that have been a killer for many.
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