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Brexit. Why do Brits want Out of the EU?

 
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Sat 1 Feb, 2020 07:48 am
I can just hear the collective European hostess: "Are they gone yet . . . I thought they'd never go home!"
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Sat 1 Feb, 2020 08:04 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Brexit trade talks: EU to back Spain over Gibraltar claims
Quote:
Territory’s economy at risk unless UK reaches agreement with Madrid over ownership

The EU will back Spain over its territorial claims to Gibraltar in the next phase of Brexit negotiations by giving Madrid the power to exclude the British overseas territory from any trade deal struck with Brussels.

The Observer has learned that the Spanish government has insisted on reference to the Rock in the EU’s opening negotiating position, which will be published in draft form on Monday.

Boris Johnson will be presented with the choice of reaching agreement with the Spaniards about Gibraltar’s future or exposing its citizens to economic peril by pushing it outside any EU-UK trade deal.

“They have in principle asked that the new relationship not apply to Gibraltar without the explicit consent of Spain, which will only be given if the bilateral talks with Spain and the UK over the rock are resolved,” a senior EU diplomat said.

The development highlights the pitfalls Downing Street faces as it moves into negotiations on the future relationship with Brussels. The UK is now a “third country” to the EU after it formally withdrew at midnight central European time on Friday.

British sovereignty over Gibraltar was formalised by the treaty of Utrecht in 1713 but Spain has always bristled at the idea of UK ownership.

As an EU member state, the UK had been able to resist Spanish claims over the territory but Madrid will now have the full support of the other 26 countries in the bloc.
... ... ...
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Sat 1 Feb, 2020 08:16 am
@Walter Hinteler,
PM Johnson is preparing to impose full customs and border checks on all European Union goods entering Britain from next year, in an attempt to increase pressure on the bloc in trade talks.

Boris Johnson plans to impose full customs and border checks on European goods
Quote:
The move is a radical departure from pre-election planning

Boris Johnson is preparing to impose full customs and border checks on all European goods entering the UK after Brexit, in a ramping up of pressure on the coming EU-UK trade talks, the Telegraph has learned.

In a radical departure from pre-election ‘no deal’ planning that prioritised the smooth flow of goods into the UK from Europe, Whitehall departments have been told to prepare for imposing the full panoply of checks on EU imports to the UK.

The toughened approach, which is designed to give UK negotiators greater leverage against Brussels, came as Mr Johnson promised that Brexit would open an exciting new chapter “in our great national drama”.
... ... ...
georgeob1
 
  1  
Sat 1 Feb, 2020 08:25 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Perhaps it's a gesture to remind the EU that these things work both ways. Their lack of flexibility can be matched by the same thing from the UK. I believe both sides have a deep interest in quickly reaching an amicable, workable agreement that is in keeping with the original intent of the Common Market (if not that of advocates of "ever closer union).
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Sat 1 Feb, 2020 08:44 am
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
Perhaps it's a gesture to remind the EU that these things work both ways. Their lack of flexibility can be matched by the same thing from the UK.
What "lack of flexibility"? I thought, the UK left the EU and not the other way around.
The UK is now a "third country" to the EU, that's what the UK wanted.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Sat 1 Feb, 2020 08:55 am
@Walter Hinteler,
That an understandable reaction, however I don't believe it is beneficial to either the EU or the UK in the circumstances at hand. My impression (not certain knowledge) is that the EU is now held together, more by bureaucratic rule and compulsion, than by a pervasive spirit among the citizens of its member countries. That's a signal that the latter needs renewal.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Sat 1 Feb, 2020 09:03 am
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
My impression (not certain knowledge) is that the EU is now held together, more by bureaucratic rule and compulsion, than by a pervasive spirit among the citizens of its member countries.
Well, you could say the same about NATO or any other international treaty or anything any government anywhere does.

The European Union is a political and economic union of (27) member states.
But there exists a Europe for Citizens Programme which "serves to create a modern European agora".
georgeob1
 
  1  
Sat 1 Feb, 2020 09:17 am
@Walter Hinteler,
I agree that NATO is not what it once was - members were formerly more united, and by a then real, and proximate common enemy. That is no longer the case. Since then the U.S. has badly overdone originally well-intended (but often badly executed) intervention in the Middle East & Mesopotamia, and the European members have failed to meet their promises, to the others. Some initiatives have begun to correct both, but success is still far away. Despite that, dangers to the Freedom and safety of Europe still persist. They, in addition to the evident weakening of the fabric of the EU, are a risky combination.

I persist in believing that the authoritarian and bureaucratic approach the EU has taken to achieve the poorly described goal of "ever closer union" was an error: a more clearly stated federal approach, involving clear limits on the powers of the Central EU government would have achieved better results, and would likely have given the member states more flexibility in dealing with the several serious external issues that have arisen during the past two decades.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Sat 1 Feb, 2020 09:19 am
@georgeob1,
That might be so. But any country joining the EU (or signing the treaties) knows the core values of the European Union.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Sat 1 Feb, 2020 09:25 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Tell that to President Orban of Hungary.
livinglava
 
  0  
Sat 1 Feb, 2020 09:28 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

That might be so. But any country joining the EU (or signing the treaties) knows the core values of the European Union.

Which are what, exactly?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Sat 1 Feb, 2020 09:34 am
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
Tell that to President Orban of Hungary.
Orban is the Prime Minister of Hungary, János Áder is the President of Hungary. Wink

But otherwise ... Orban wouldn't listen.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Sat 1 Feb, 2020 12:04 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Since Brexit is official, this also means that the centre of the EU has moved.
To Germany, Gadheim near Würzburg in Lower Franconia (Bavaria).

https://i.imgur.com/O1Jgm6r.jpg

The district of Veitshöchheim commemorated Britain's withdrawal from the EU with a muted ceremony.

https://i.imgur.com/5eOuEqd.jpg
georgeob1
 
  1  
Sat 1 Feb, 2020 12:08 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
The economic and political center of the EU has been in Germany for a long time. I'm not suggesting any fault for this on Germany's part, rather that is likely an issue related to both Brexit and some other issues facing the Union.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Sat 1 Feb, 2020 12:14 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Editorial: The Guardian view on Britain leaving the EU: still part of Europe
Quote:
Brexit has happened. It is a defeat to be mourned. But the country will face big choices about its place in the world
[...]
In every other sense, though, Britain is still part of Europe. That is as true today, outside the EU, as it was yesterday, inside it. France is still visible from the south coast on a clear day. The Irish Republic is still a short drive from many places in Northern Ireland. The same winds blow over us out of a shared sky. Most travel in and out of Britain is to and from Europe. The EU remains by far our largest trading partner. Our security is rooted, now as ever, in Europe’s security. Many thousands of our ancestors died for it.

The bonds of geography and history, of climate and culture, of industry and commerce, of travel and study, will remain. So must the vast fund of common human sentiment that transcends the differences of language and national borders remain in place. The week in which Britain leaves the EU has been the week marking the 75th anniversary of the liberation of the Auschwitz death camp. The responsibility of passing the Holocaust story on to new generations is profound. That story is Europe’s story, and it is Britain’s story too. We may be out. But we’re not going anywhere. We’re still here. We are Europeans.
[...]
Yet Brexit is not over. The separation has been agreed. But not the terms. We are now in transition for a further 11 months to an unknown destination. In practice, everyday life today will be the same as before. The country will not plunge into the abyss, a fact that will be shamelessly misrepresented over the coming weeks by Brexit supporters. For the rest of this year, EU rules and obligations still apply. But it is a perilous period of uncertainty that cannot be brushed over with the false pretence that Brexit is “done”. A great public task of this year is therefore to ensure that close practical and commercial ties are maintained with the EU as seamlessly as possible after the transition ends on 31 December.
[...]
We want Britain to have the wisdom to succeed in this new era. But we also want the EU to succeed. Brexit holds lessons for the EU too. This is the first time in the 63 years of the union that a member state has left. Losing an important nation is not good. Britain is not the only European nation, large or small, that sometimes prefers to march to its own drum. A better EU would be one that is more comfortable with the practical union of compromises between large and small, east and west, north and south, that it actually is – not one that hankers, mistakenly, to be more overreaching, intrusive and homogeneous. A better EU would also be a more prosperous and dynamic EU than it is today.

One day, perhaps, Britain will choose to rejoin such an EU. We will miss our membership dreadfully. We fear that Britain risks avoidable suffering for abandoning it. We hope to be back. But that day will not come soon. Anything else is a fantasy. Now as before, Brexit or not, this relationship needs to be based on facts and real connections, not on fantasies. The Guardian, at least, is not leaving Europe. We are a European news organisation. Europe is our back yard. It’s in our hearts and it’s in our DNA. We will do everything we possibly can to report on Europe, to Europe, and for Europe. Perhaps, like many pro-Europeans, we haven’t done everything we could have done over the last 47 years to burnish the links. The lesson for us all is to do more, and to do it better. Long live Britain. Long live Europe.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Sat 1 Feb, 2020 12:21 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
I rarely agree with anything I see in Guardian editorials, but I do favor this one. The EU needs to find a way to limit the powers of the Central bureaucracy and preserve areas of independent action by member governments. Europe is still to a degree, united, but the physical, cultural and economic diversity found across that continent, very strongly indicates the need for a Federal form of EU governance to give member nations control of some of their affairs on critical issues and limit the frictions and divisive forces now operating there.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Sat 1 Feb, 2020 02:10 pm
First Minister's letter to Europe: 31 January 2020
Quote:
Dear European friends and neighbours

The UK is leaving the European Union this evening. Those are words I had hoped never to have to write. Not least because an overwhelming majority of people in Scotland did not vote for this.

Scotland is a proud European nation and I profoundly regret the UK’s decision to leave. The European Union has brought together like-minded, independent nations on equal terms to work together for the mutual benefit of all our citizens.

These benefits, including being part of a single market of more than 500 million people, have been well rehearsed in economic terms. But today is not about numbers - it is about people.

Scotland is home to more than 230,000 EU citizens, who are welcome in Scotland as our friends and family. These are people who contribute to Scotland’s vibrant cultural diversity, who save lives in our health service, who teach our children and who have built homes and businesses across the country.

From the very start of the Brexit process I have been clear that Scotland remains their home and they are welcome to stay. Likewise, many thousands of Scots have made their home in countries across Europe and I am grateful for the warm welcome they continue to receive.

Scotland may lie on the edge of Europe, but we have always been – and want to remain – at its heart. Scots have benefitted hugely from being able to live, work and travel in the rest of the European Union. The links between the people of Scotland and nations across the European Union run deep.

I believe that Scotland has the right to choose its own future and that the best option for Scotland is to be an independent country, in the EU. In the meantime we will stand shoulder to shoulder with the rest of Europe around our shared values and interests.

The UK’s exit from the EU may be marked with celebrations by some in other parts of the UK, but I am writing to you today – a very symbolic day - to send a strong message of solidarity, and of hope, to our European friends and neighbours. Scotland very much hopes to resume our membership of the European Union in the future, as an equal member.

It would mean a great deal for the people of Scotland to know that our European friends stand in solidarity with us at this time.

Please leave a light on for Scotland.

Nicola Sturgeon
First Minister of Scotland
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Sun 2 Feb, 2020 12:46 am
@Walter Hinteler,
The German weekly "Die Zeit" has published an interesting interactive map consisting of over 2,300 British newspaper front pages from the last three years.
Brexit in British Newspapers provides an interesting insight into the relentless anti-Eu propaganda which constantly makes the headlines on the front pages of the British press. Zeit has only looked at newspapers from the last three years but the British media's campaign against the European Union has been running for at least the last twenty years.

>Die Zeit< (just click on the arrows)

If you explore Zeit's map you can see that these obviously ridiculous stories have not been so popular over the last three years. In these more recent years the British press has been more keen to paint the European Union as a huge immigrant threat and a constant drain on the UK economy. Unfortunately over the next few years, as the UK tries to negotiate itself out of the European Union, the lies of the British media are very unlikely to stop.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Sun 2 Feb, 2020 03:30 am
@Walter Hinteler,
That's an important point, which goes a long way to explain Brexit. The UK press has used Brussels as a skapegoat since day 1, and the politicians never pushed back against their xenophobia.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Sun 2 Feb, 2020 06:02 am
@Olivier5,
British diplomats have been ordered to make a symbolic break with Brussels (they have been instructed to sit away from EU ambassadors at international events).

Irish prime minister Leo Varadkar wrote:
It’s kind of when you are in primary school and in secondary school and you get worried about who you can sit beside in class. Most international forums I have attended, whether it’s the UN or other international bodies, you tend to be seated in alphabetic order or protocol.
0 Replies
 
 

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