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Brexit. Why do Brits want Out of the EU?

 
 
livinglava
 
  1  
Mon 7 Jan, 2019 06:16 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

No blackmail deals like Trump's? No wall? 600,000+ people go without income.

The Dems could also start discussing how to deal with lost income in the event of an extended government shutdown.

They probably care less about helping people deal with lost income than they do about forcing a budget through so they can stimulate stock markets and business.

It amazes me that they support business and the larger economy by pretending to be for workers and the poor, oppressed, etc.

If they care so much about people who are economically disenfranchized, why don't they work harder to give people suggestions for how to make do without income when things like shutdowns, furloughs, and unemployment generally happens.

Yes, we know they like to solve social-economic problems by spending money; but could they also maybe come up with some ways to do so when there's no more money to spend?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Mon 7 Jan, 2019 08:54 pm
@livinglava,
Examples already exist in countries like Norway and Sweden. Even in Japan, equality is fairer than most societies in developed countries. https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/2017/apr/25/equality-japan-inequality-vision-fairer-society-too-good-to-be-true When my wife and I visited Japan in 1982, we were impressed by how Tokyoites were dressed so well. Our hotel was but a few blocks from Ginza, the main shopping street in the city. I'm sure many things have changed over the years, and we wouldn't recognize over 90% of what we saw in the early 1980's. I wouldn't mind another visit to Japan, but the chances are getting slimmer by the year.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Mon 7 Jan, 2019 11:49 pm
Quote:
MPs who do not want the UK to leave the EU without a deal will later try to limit the government's financial powers in the event of a no-deal Brexit.

The House of Commons will vote on a cross-party amendment to the Finance Bill, which enacts the Budget.

Several senior figures back the move, but International Trade Secretary Liam Fox called it "irresponsible".

Meanwhile, minister Richard Harrington said he is prepared to resign to stop the possibility of a no-deal Brexit.

Mr Harrington suggested to BBC Newsnight that others might follow suit, saying his position was "not an uncommon one".

MPs will seek to turn the screw on ministers with Tuesday's amendment, which is intended to demonstrate to the government the strength of opposition to a no-deal Brexit in the Commons.

If passed, it would mean the government would not be able to raise certain taxes and take other financial steps arising from a no deal - unless Parliament had explicitly authorised the UK leaving the EU without a deal.
... ... ...
BBC
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Tue 8 Jan, 2019 09:41 am
@Walter Hinteler,
The dark, very dark (brown) sides of Brexit:
The murder of my wife, Jo Cox, is being used to cow MPs. That’s not her legacy
Quote:
[...]
Anna Soubry, a Tory MP harangued by far-right protesters on Monday, was threatened by a man who said she should be “Jo Cox’d”. The man responsible was jailed for eight weeks.

Helen Jones, Labour MP for Warrington North, was similarly threatened. A man holding a hunting knife said to social workers: “I’m going to go there and Jo Cox her.”

A third MP, Stella Creasy, received a threatening letter saying she would “join that woman cox”. The SNP politicians Stewart Stevenson and Angus MacNeil were told to “remember what happened to Jo Cox” – the person responsible in that case was prosecuted and fined.
[...]
And then we started seeing it in newspapers. MPs are told by national commentators to remember before voting for or against a deal, or for or against a referendum, to remember what happened to Jo. Even some MPs and government ministers seem to be using the threat of violence as a warning to others to do their will.

I have no interest in telling MPs or anyone else how to vote. A second referendum, a no-deal scenario, a Norway option – all of them have major implications and will affect lives differently. There is no easy option. Nor do I play down the fear of those who worry about the impact on democracy of holding a new referendum.

But I am calling on MPs – and all people – not to be cowed by what happened to Jo.

Terrorism only succeeds when we let it. To act differently because of the actions of an extremist would be to vindicate their act. To say that politics can be shaped by violence.

I don’t care what you think about Brexit – whether you support no‑deal, another referendum, the prime minister’s deal – but whatever you back do it because you deeply believe in it. And please do not use Jo’s name as a threat.

If Jo’s name is to become a synonym for anything, it should be for her kindness, generosity, optimism and her fundamental belief that we have more in common than that which divides us. That’s what sums her up, that captures who she was and the spirit we’ll need more than ever when the current political decisions have played out.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Tue 8 Jan, 2019 09:47 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Germany pledges full EU support for Ireland over Brexi
Quote:
German Foreign Minister Heiko Maas has reiterated that the EU finds a hard border between Ireland and Northern Ireland "unacceptable." He warned of "serious damage" in the event of a no deal scenario.

Speaking alongside his Irish counterpart Simon Coveney on Tuesday, German Foreign Minister Heiko Maas said the EU would not accept a hard border between Ireland, an EU member state, and Northern Ireland, which is part of the United Kingdom.

Maas pledged the EU's full support for the Republic of Ireland in the face of increasing uncertainty ahead of a fast-approaching deadline for Britain's exit from the European Union.

The border issue is one of the most contentious in the Brexit negotiations.

Maas urged British lawmakers to support Prime Minister Theresa May's Brexit deal, rather than risk leaving the EU without an agreement in place: "We are very much focused on working to make sure there is no no-deal Brexit because it would trigger disadvantages for my own country and for the EU at large. It might have a negative effect on jobs in Germany."

The German foreign minister was dire in his warning, saying, "Even a no-deal scenario is still an option despite the serious damage that this would cause on both sides."

DW's Fabian von der Mark, traveling with Maas, posted a tweet citing Germany's special understanding of "how walls and borders can threaten peace."

Addressing British media reports that the UK government was mulling an extension of the March 29 Brexit deadline, Coveney said an extension of article 50 would "have to get consideration at an EU level."

"But certainly from an Irish perspective, if such an ask happens, we won't be standing in the way on that," he added.
... ... ...
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Tue 8 Jan, 2019 09:57 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Howver, Brexit campaigners condemn 'far-right' yellow vest protesters for abuse of MPs outside Commons: 'Utterly unacceptable'
Quote:
Pro-Brexit campaigners have condemned the harassment of MPs and journalists by “far-right” demonstrators outside parliament.

Leave Means Leave said abuse shouted at Remain supporters including Tory MP Anna Soubry was "utterly unacceptable".

A group calling themselves “Yellow Vests UK” have been returning to Westminster almost daily to confront and heckle pro-EU demonstrators who gather at College Green.

On Monday, they chanted "Soubry is a Nazi" as the MP did television interviews before following her along the street shouting abuse.

Harry Todd, national organiser for Leave Means Leave, told The Independent: "Their tactics are completely and utterly unacceptable. I condemn their behaviour in the strongest terms.

"They are people who are angry and they don't know how to express it so they are lashing out. They genuinely feel betrayed. I understand their frustration and I understand their anger, but their tactics are wrong and it doesn't help anyone."

He said he had himself been shouted by Ms Soubry's abusers after he refused to let them use Leave Means Leave's placards.

However, other Brexit supporters downplayed the harassment. One woman demonstrating in College Green on Tuesday, who gave her name only as Carol, said: "What you're seeing is public anger boiling over. Yes, Soubry was called a Nazi. But it's just a name, it didn't hurt her."
... ... ...
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Tue 8 Jan, 2019 01:11 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Commons defeats government to pass motion making no-deal more difficult
Quote:
MPs have inflicted another Commons defeat on Theresa May by passing a motion that will make it harder for ministers to force through a no-deal Brexit.

The amendment to a key government bill was tabled by home affairs committee chair Yvette Cooper and supported by 303 MPs to 296.

It prevents ministers from introducing new tax-raises in the case of a no-deal Brexit unless MPs have specifically voted in favour of leaving the EU without an agreement.

More than a dozen Conservatives joined with the opposition parties to vote through the change.

The defeat marks the latest in a series of Commons setbacks for the government in the run-up to next week's crunch vote on Theresa May's Brexit deal.
... ... ...
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Wed 9 Jan, 2019 11:50 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Thursday’s papers have gone after the Speaker of the House, John Bercow, whose decision to allow a vote giving Theresa May three days to present a Brexit “plan B” if her deal is defeated was considered at best “controversial” and at worst a demonstration of “flagrant prejudice”.

https://i.imgur.com/Xc0Rdv6.jpg


Namely this happened yesterday: May loses grip on Brexit deal after fresh Commons humiliation
Quote:
Theresa May’s room for manoeuvre should her Brexit deal be rejected next week was further constrained on Wednesday night, after the government lost a second dramatic parliamentary showdown in as many days.

An increasingly boxed-in prime minister must now set out her plan B within three working days of a defeat next Tuesday, after the rebel amendment passed.

There were furious scenes in the House of Commons as the Speaker, John Bercow, took the controversial decision to allow a vote on the amendment, tabled by the former attorney general Dominic Grieve.

A string of MPs, including the leader of the house, Andrea Leadsom, repeatedly intervened to question the Speaker’s approach. Some accused him of being biased against Brexit.

But parliament went on to back Grieve as the prime minister was defied by Conservative rebels determined to hand control of the Brexit process to MPs if next week’s vote is lost.
... ... ...
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Thu 10 Jan, 2019 12:08 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
What a foolish battle. Brexit cannot be a win for anyone. It seems as though nobody studied Economics.
Quote:
The Benefits of Free Trade: A Guide For Policymakers | The Heritage ...
https://www.heritage.org/trade/report/the-benefits-free-trade-guide-policymakers
by D Froning - ‎Cited by 19 - ‎Related articles
Free trade is the only type of truly fair trade because it offers consumers the most choices and the best opportunities to improve their standard of living. Free trade promotes innovation because, along with goods and services, the flow of trade circulates new ideas.
Olivier5
 
  2  
Thu 10 Jan, 2019 12:34 pm
Poll question: Which of the following outcomes do you think is most likely in March 2019?

- Britain leaves the European Union in March 2019 without a deal: 44%

- Britain leaves the European Union in March 2019 with a deal: 19%
- Not sure: 19%
- Britain does not leave the European Union in March 2019: 17%

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2019-brexit-deal-public-sentiment/
georgeob1
 
  1  
Thu 10 Jan, 2019 12:59 pm
@cicerone imposter,
My impression is that economics has little to do with the motivations of many UK citizens to leave the EU. Rather the issue for them appears (to me) to involve the manner of governance of their lives.

The economic performance of the EU has many positive attributes and even tangible results. I don't think there is much dispute about that. The resistance that has so far arisen, both in the UK and in other EU nations also appears to involve governance, involving immigration issues and the detailed oversight of agriculture and commerce by the EU and its courts.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Thu 10 Jan, 2019 01:08 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
My impression is that economics has little to do with the motivations of many UK citizens to leave the EU. Rather the issue for them appears (to me) to involve the manner of governance of their lives.

The economic performance of the EU has many positive attributes and even tangible results. I don't think there is much dispute about that. The resistance that has so far arisen, both in the UK and in other EU nations also appears to involve governance, involving immigration issues and the detailed oversight of agriculture and commerce by the EU and its courts.
I'm not sure, george of you followed the discussion in the UK which led to the Brexit-vote. And those afterwards.

The "detailed oversight of agriculture and commerce " within in the EU is indead done by the related EU agencies and organisations.
The EU-court is tasked with interpreting EU law and ensuring its equal application across all EU member states. Like anywhere else, there are always some who don't follow the law and disregard courts.

However, Brexit- folowers were until recently focused with their critics on the European Court of Human Rights, a court that has nothing to do with the EU besides residing in an EU-country.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Thu 10 Jan, 2019 01:53 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Thank you, Walter.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Thu 10 Jan, 2019 01:56 pm
@Olivier5,
The Brits are going to feel the pain after March 2019 without a deal. It's really sad to see that they are imposing themselves to this pain that is not necessary.
Olivier5
 
  2  
Thu 10 Jan, 2019 02:15 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I think they could still postpone the jump by 2 years if the rest of the EU agrees. That’d be the sensible thing to do at this stage but there’s less sense than sensibilities in Jane Austen’s land these days.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Thu 10 Jan, 2019 02:24 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

The "detailed oversight of agriculture and commerce " within in the EU is indead done by the related EU agencies and organisations.
The EU-court is tasked with interpreting EU law and ensuring its equal application across all EU member states. Like anywhere else, there are always some who don't follow the law and disregard courts.

However, Brexit- folowers were until recently focused with their critics on the European Court of Human Rights, a court that has nothing to do with the EU besides residing in an EU-country.


I agree. The issue is governance and the actions of the EU courts and bureaucrats, mostly in areas other than economics. That;s what I wrote.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Thu 10 Jan, 2019 02:45 pm
@georgeob1,
Since it was mentioned by Brexiters even today: the European Court of Human Rights isn't an EU-court but a (the only) court established by the European Convention on Human Rights, on 21 January 1959 by the Council of Europe (47 judges, one from each of the 47 member states of the Council of Europe).

georgeob1
 
  1  
Thu 10 Jan, 2019 03:39 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
I agree. One of the fascinating things about the EU is that it evolved from a number of , sometimes disjoint, specific issues that various groupings of European nations undertook to deal with together. The court to which you referred, and the Schengen Treaty, regarding the internal movement of people within the territory of the various signatories, are prominent examples. Unfortunately the political aspects of subsequent governance decisions by member nations were left out of those agreements. At the time they were enacted, these agreements involved sovereign nations. Now the governance associated with these agreements is increasingly the domain of various EU institutions, which have grown up to fill the interstitials among them, thereby diminishing the sovereignty of the member nations in a way that (I believe) was never put explicitly to their people at the time they joined the Union.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Thu 10 Jan, 2019 10:53 pm
@georgeob1,
The Schengen Agreement and the Schengen Convention are EU law.

The European Court of Human Rights and the Council of Europe really have nothing to do with the EU. Well, yes, they are about European countries, but not an EU-institution at all.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Thu 10 Jan, 2019 11:46 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Shortly before the Brexit vote in parliament, nervousness is growing in the British economy. New bad news comes almost daily from companies - and the government's preparations hardly give cause for hope.

The MPs continue EU withdrawal deal debate today.

Then, the MPs will hear that a No-deal Brexit would put thousands of UK jobs at risk
Quote:
A no-deal Brexit would have profound economic consequences with GDP shrinking by up to 8%, putting thousands of jobs at risk, the Confederation of British Industry is to warn.

The business body is urging MPs to back Theresa May’s deal, describing it as a “solution” businesses can work with as it delivers a transition period and avoids a “hugely damaging cliff edge”.

It says if parliament does not agree, it must immediately outline its plan to avert no deal and secure British jobs.

With just four days to go before the prime minister’s last-ditch attempt to get parliamentary approval for her deal, the CBI is piling on the pressure to avert a no-deal outcome, which it believes would be a disaster for Britain.
 

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