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Dose bible oppresses women?

 
 
Reply Sat 7 Aug, 2004 08:56 pm
The Bible Convicts Women as the original Sinners, (ie. Eve picking from the forbidden tree){Genesis 2:4-3:24}

The Bible says "The Birth of a Daughter is a loss" {Ecclesiasticus 22:3}.

The Bible Forbids Women from Speaking in church {I Corinthians 14:34-35}.

In the Bible, divorced Women are Labeled as an Adulteress, while men are not {Matthew 5:31-32}.

In The Bible, Widows and Sisters do Not Inherit Any Property or Wealth, Only men
do{Numbers 27:1-11}

"If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives" {Deuteronomy 22:28-30}
One must ask a simple question here, who is really punished, the man who raped the woman or the woman who was raped? According to the Bible, you have to spend the Rest of Your Life with the man who Raped You.

The Bible also asks Women to wear veils as in Islam {I Corinthians 11:3-10}, (for those who look at Hijab as thing that oppresses women in Islam)
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Monger
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Aug, 2004 11:12 pm
Re: Dose bible oppresses women?
glad_to_be_muslim wrote:
"If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives" {Deuteronomy 22:28-30}

One must ask a simple question here, who is really punished, the man who raped the woman or the woman who was raped? According to the Bible, you have to spend the Rest of Your Life with the man who Raped You.


Raped women were treated like damaged goods. "You break it, you buy it" is the concept governing the Biblical law you quoted.
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glad to be muslim
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Aug, 2004 12:48 am
Re: Dose bible oppresses women?
Monger wrote:
glad_to_be_muslim wrote:
"If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives" {Deuteronomy 22:28-30}

One must ask a simple question here, who is really punished, the man who raped the woman or the woman who was raped? According to the Bible, you have to spend the Rest of Your Life with the man who Raped You.


Raped women were treated like damaged goods. "You break it, you buy it" is the concept governing the Biblical law you quoted.


women like goods?
Confused
If beautiful women rejected an ugly man, then the ugly man rapes here next day and then he can have here? What law is that?
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Monger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Aug, 2004 01:01 am
Well, there isn't too much sense involved in thinking of women as property. Rolling Eyes
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dlowan
 
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Reply Sun 8 Aug, 2004 01:25 am
What in the name of smeg happened by law to raped women who were NOT virgins, and were promised to be married, Monger??????


I cna see that, for its time, the law was attempting to be protective of the raped woman - since it gave her a legal status and economic support which, one assumes as "damaged goods" (in the horrible thinking of that - and all too often, this - time saw her as) she might well not otherwise have been able to achieve. One assumes women had few, if any, inheritance and property rights at the time and were reliant upon marriage, or their fathers, for economic support.

Monger is NOT defending this attitude, by the way, Happy Muslim - merely noting the logic of it as it would have been seen at the time.
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mosheb
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Aug, 2004 01:35 am
By the way, for any one intrested in the way the bible looks at women, should contrast between the last chapter of malachi (is that the way non-jews write it?) and psalm 45... there are very different conceptions moving around there... anyway, I agree that the idea of the "rape" law was to give a sure place in society for the raped woman. The bible does not say that the right way to think about it is as "damaged goods", it just gives a way to remedy the problems caused in such a society. The bible doesn't try to uproot the whole conception of the society, but to govern it by its own basic conceptions, except for a few major ones (such as monotheism, etc.)
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Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Aug, 2004 02:37 am
Who wrote the bible?
Are any books in the Bible written by women? I think not!

Yes, the men who wrote the Bible--and the men of their generation and the men of generations past and future--oppressed women.

Today, in North America, that oppression continues but in a less obvious manner. The rest of the world is another story.
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Monger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Aug, 2004 09:23 am
dlowan wrote:
What in the name of smeg happened by law to raped women who were NOT virgins, and were promised to be married, Monger??????


Well, the basic run through is that if the previously virgin raped woman was not yet engaged, that's when the law quoted earlier takes effect.

If the raped woman was a virgin already engaged to be married, the rapist would be killed & the woman was not supposed to be subjected to any punishment.

As for a non-raped, non-virgin woman, if she entered into mariage her husband was supposed to round up the men of the town & kill her in front of her father's house.

See Deuteronomy 22 for more details.
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cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Aug, 2004 09:29 am
I'm a bit rusty, but I do believe that the Torah says that married Jewish women should get sex at least once a week, twice on the Sabbath, a gold card, and half the assets when the divorce is final. That seems pretty forward-thinking. I know some of that is from the Torah, and some probably from our friends and family, but I get so confused which is which.
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Monger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Aug, 2004 12:10 pm
Quote:
I'm a bit rusty, but I do believe that the Torah says that married Jewish women should get [...] & half the assets when the divorce is final. That seems pretty forward-thinking. I know some of that is from the Torah, and some probably from our friends and family, but I get so confused which is which.

I'm not sure what you're referring to, Cav. I do know though that a married man owned all of his wife's property, & a woman could regain her property only upon divorce or her husband's death.
There was also no provision for a woman to divorce her husband, though men could leave their wives rather easily
    [size=11][url=http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=&passage=Deut.+24%3A1-4][b]Deuteronomy 24:1-4[/b][/url] 1 If a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, 2 and if after she leaves his house she becomes the wife of another man, 3 and her second husband dislikes her and writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, or if he dies, 4 then her first husband, who divorced her, is not allowed to marry her again after she has been defiled...[/size]

Divorced women also didn't have the same rights as married or never-married women.
The laws of inheritance certainly favored men, too. First, daughters were precluded from taking anything if their dad was survived by sons or descendants of sons. Second, the mother & her family were not heirs of a decedent. Third, a husband inherited from his wife, but a wife didn't inherit from her husband. One mention that covers a fair bit of this system:
    [size=11][url=http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=&passage=Numbers+27%3A8-11][b]Numbers 27:8-11[/b][/url] 8 "Say to the Israelites, 'If a man dies and leaves no son, turn his inheritance over to his daughter. 9 If he has no daughter, give his inheritance to his brothers. 10 If he has no brothers, give his inheritance to his father's brothers. 11 If his father had no brothers, give his inheritance to the nearest relative in his clan, that he may possess it. This is to be a legal requirement for the Israelites, as the LORD commanded Moses.' "[/size]


Here's one law I always thought was interesting, though...
    [url=http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=&passage=Deuteronomy+24%3A5][size=11][b]Deuteronomy 24:5[/b][/url] If a man has recently married, he must not be sent to war or have any other duty laid on him. For one year he is to be free to stay at home and bring happiness to the wife he has married.[/size]


The bottom line, however, is that women are consistently portrayed in the Bible as appendages & possessions of men. Exodus 21:7, for example, seems to condone men selling their daughters into slavery, and men also controlled their daughters' sexuality, as can be seen in the case of Lot (among many others) who offered his virgin daughters to homosexual men in Sodom ('tis at Genesis 19:8).

Caveat: I don't qualify myself as an expert on ancient Jewish law or anything like that.
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cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Aug, 2004 12:57 pm
Heh heh, I don't have the direct reference, but the sex stuff from the Bible is apparently true. The rest, well, let's just say it seems that Jewish divorce laws have indeed changed in modern times (I have a feeling that most Jewish lawyers don't rely too heavily on ancient Talmudic law). Wink I am hoping that someone more well-versed can bring up a reference regarding the sex thing though. The rest of my post was rather flippant. I am absolutely certain there were no references to gold cards in the Torah.
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Monger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Aug, 2004 02:56 pm
cavfancier wrote:
The rest, well, let's just say it seems that Jewish divorce laws have indeed changed in modern times (I have a feeling that most Jewish lawyers don't rely too heavily on ancient Talmudic law). Wink


I'm aware of that, but our happy Muslim here was specifically asking about stuff as it was written in the Bible, presumably in response to statements on another thread saying that certain Muslim tenants that're "there for all to read" should be "openly refuted, citing the passages". You'd said that that divorce stuff was in the Torah. Anywho, I'm just going along with GladToBeMuslim's original premise.
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Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Aug, 2004 03:05 pm
http://www.jewfaq.org/sex.htm

Quote:
Sex is the woman's right, not the man's. A man has a duty to give his wife sex regularly and to ensure that sex is pleasurable for her. He is also obligated to watch for signs that his wife wants sex, and to offer it to her without her asking for it. The woman's right to sexual intercourse is referred to as onah, and it is one of a wife's three basic rights (the others are food and clothing), which a husband may not reduce. The Talmud specifies both the quantity and quality of sex that a man must give his wife. It specifies the frequency of sexual obligation based on the husband's occupation, although this obligation can be modified in the ketubah (marriage contract). A man may not take a vow to abstain from sex for an extended period of time, and may not take a journey for an extended period of time, because that would deprive his wife of sexual relations. In addition, a husband's consistent refusal to engage in sexual relations is grounds for compelling a man to divorce his wife, even if the couple has already fulfilled the halakhic obligation to procreate.


Quote:
Sex should only be experienced in a time of joy. Sex for selfish personal satisfaction, without regard for the partner's pleasure, is wrong and evil. A man may never force his wife to have sex. A couple may not have sexual relations while drunk or quarreling. Sex may never be used as a weapon against a spouse, either by depriving the spouse of sex or by compelling it. It is a serious offense to use sex (or lack thereof) to punish or manipulate a spouse.


I could make a remark here, but I will hold my tongue! Laughing
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cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Aug, 2004 08:39 pm
I found a link with info on divorce under Jewish law: http://www.mnment.com/judaism/divorce.php
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Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Aug, 2004 11:31 pm
Dang, Phoenix--I'm converting. Smile
-------
I would answer Happy Muslim's question by saying yes, the Bible has oppression towards women.

The ones I'm thinking of are a woman's inability to preach over men, or be deacons... and her deference to her husband.

Fortunately, if a woman rejects these and other rules she deems oppressive, and she chooses to leave the faith--no one will kill her.
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dazedandconfused
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Aug, 2004 10:16 pm
Also notice the difference between the two creation stories. In one man and woman are created at the same time and in the other the woman is made from the man. Simply, the Bible carried on something built into all mammals makes males feel superior, something humans in modern first world countries try to get rid of. One day hopefully the entire world will provide equal opportunity to everyone, but it has not been easy so far, and won't get any easier.
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