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Is belief in a supreme being a religion. .

 
 
au1929
 
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2004 06:55 am
Is a belief in the existence in God what we generally term a religion I wonder. I believe in the existence of God partly on an emotional basis and partly because I fervently wish it to be. However, as far as religions are concerned I think they are all hokum. Each one claiming, follow me I am the way to salvation. Perhaps one should cover all bases and join them all on the off chance that one is telling the truth. Nah.
For those who are believers why do you believe your religion to be the one. Is it because you were born to it or because you came to it out of strong conviction or?
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CoastalRat
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2004 07:29 am
Well Au, I will begin by stating that I am a Christian who grew up in what I would refer to as a weak Christian environment. There was never a time I did not believe in the existence of God or that Jesus Christ is God incarnate. That said, my faith in Christ is also based on thoughtful study and logic (believe it or not).

Simply put, Christianity is the only faith which declares that God came to earth, died as a sacrifice for sins and then returned from the grave as a risen savior. Now there are only 2 possibilities for these claims, true or false.

If the claims are true, then to me Christ's proclamation as being the "way, the truth and the life" has a stronger claim of validity than do claims of other world religions, whose founders did not have the sense to come back to life as proof of their claims Smile. If the Biblical claims are false, then Christianity is no better than any other religion. This then to me is the simple crux of the matter. Are the Biblical claims accurate? Or are they fables? I satisfied myself many years ago that they are accurate and accepted God's forgiveness for my sins through Christ's sacrifice on the cross. I have never regretted it or been convinced differently. I could go through many reasons why I logically believe the gospel narratives as presented in the Bible, but that would take too long here.

There is a book from a couple of years ago that does a good job of making a legal case for the Biblical narrative of Jesus. It is entitled "The Case for Christ" and was written by an investigative reporter who considered himself an athiest until his wife became a Christian, which led him to investigate the Biblical record and eventually led him to accept the fact that Jesus is who He claimed to be. Even if you do not have any inclination to believe that Christianity is based on a factual accounting of the life of Jesus, you may be interested in this book.

Anyway, that is my 2 cents worth.
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2004 08:14 am
Coastalrat

It is difficult to respond since I have no wish to denigrate or insult your religion. However, the inference that yours is the "real" religion and all others are false is what promotes divisiveness and biggotry and all the other ills related to religions.

Quote:
Simply put, Christianity is the only faith which declares that God came to earth, died as a sacrifice for sins and then returned from the grave as a risen savior. Now there are only 2 possibilities for these claims, true or false.


Are you inferring that Christ was God ? How does that square with the ten commandments. You shall have no other God-----------.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2004 08:47 am
Actually, the christians stole the idea of virgin birth, execution and resurrection from the Zoarastrians . . . but you party on, Coastalrat.
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CoastalRat
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2004 09:17 am
Don't worry too much about insulting my faith. The only people who get insulted are those who are not sure of their faith, in my opinion. I am sure of whom I believe in and am kinda used to being ridiculed by some on this forum for those beliefs. I can live with that. Smile

First, all religions (or nearly all) will make the claim that they are the only way. That belief is not in and of itself divisive or shows bigotry. It is only when the people who profess a particular religious belief use their religion to control others or force others to believe as they do. My belief that Jesus is the only way to attain eternal life has absolutely no effect on you unless I use this belief to force my faith on others. Making the claim as I do is not bigotry. It is no different from an athiest making the absolute claim that there is no God. Is that also bigotry? Not unless he is forcing me to believe as he does. Just as an aside, I do not deny that people have used religion as an excuse for all kinds of dispicable purposes down through time. Most true Christians would condemn actions such as the crusades and such as being counter to the teachings of Christ. Anyway, not to digress, but I do not think my belief that Christ represents the only way to salvation is bigotry or divisiveness. I believe as I do, others believe as they do. I respect their beliefs and only ask that they respect mine. I kinda relate it to my relationship with a good friend of mine. He is gay. I believe that homosexuality is a sin. But we are friends because we respect the right of each of us to believe as we choose. Is this bigotry or divisiveness on my part? I doubt you could get him to agree with that statement.

Ok, now to your other point. I really don't think this example is the best example, but it has always been the best that our feeble minds can come up with. There is only one God. But He has chosen to manifest Himself in three ways. First as God who is holy and just. To provide the ultimate payment which He demands for sin, He became man in the person of Jesus to take upon Himself the punishment we have earned for our rebellion against Him. It is His Spirit which comes to dwell in us and be a guide as we endeavor to live our lives in His grace. Again, maybe not the best explaination, but as best as I can provide without being too long winded.

Anyway, hope this answers your questions to me. Happy to tackle them anytime. LOL
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CoastalRat
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2004 09:29 am
Setanta wrote:
Actually, the christians stole the idea of virgin birth, execution and resurrection from the Zoarastrians . . . but you party on, Coastalrat.


Thank you for allowing me to party on. I so was hoping you would. I won't get bogged down in discussions of this type since it would be useless time spent on both our parts. But I will pose a question to you. Could it not also be fair that this group called the Zoarastrians stole the ideas? I ask only because you do not provide any corroborating data such as when this group existed in time and of course from what sources you have that would indicate this idea was stolen from them. Now if this group existed prior to the writing of the old testament and the new testament, then you will I am sure find writings that exist from their time attesting to their beliefs? Of course, we could go another direction. Could it not also be that their belief that God would manifest Himself through a virgin birth, be executed and then resurrected go to confirm that this did happen in the person of Jesus Christ? If as I claim there is only one God, then why would He give them a different revelation of His intentions re mankind? I would propose that the fact that this group also had this belief that it would point more favorably to this being fulfilled in some person, and since Christianity is the only faith holding that it has been fulfilled in Christ then I don't see a problem. Gosh, I know that is all very confusing, but I hope you get my drift.
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2004 09:47 am
I am sure if YEsh'ua` were to come back to earth today he would ask who is Jesus Christ and what is Christianity. YEsh'ua` for better or worse was a Hebrew and from all indications had nothing to do with a religion that was founded in his name after his death. As for divisiveness If only people of religion were as you profess them to be. But of course history puts a lie to that.
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Equus
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2004 10:01 am
Some world religions do not have a central deity. Taoism, Confucianism, and some forms of Buddhism are not based on a god.
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CoastalRat
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2004 10:13 am
au1929 wrote:
I am sure if YEsh'ua` were to come back to earth today he would ask who is Jesus Christ and what is Christianity. YEsh'ua` for better or worse was a Hebrew and from all indications had nothing to do with a religion that was founded in his name after his death. As for divisiveness If only people of religion were as you profess them to be. But of course history puts a lie to that.


Such is your belief and I respect that. I believe you are wrong and you believe I am wrong and live goes on. As for divisiveness, I do not profess people to be anything. Religion, like anything else, can be twisted into the reason for people doing just about anything. And yes, historically, many people have used religion, or the excuse of religion, to further their own quest for power. Just because one claims to be Christian does not make one a person unsusceptable to human sins or faults. Claiming to be one does not even necessarily make you one.

Anyway, I think answered your initial posting so will bid you adieu.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2004 10:17 am
CR, yes, of course it is entirely possible that the Zoarastrians stole the idea from someone else. Additionally, there are ideas of resurrection which are central to the temple society religion of the Egyptians, long, long before the writing of the Torah. Despite claims to the contrary by christians, often displaying a marvelous and convenient ignorance, the "old testament" very likely was compiled from fragmentary sources after the Babylonian captivity. It is by no means certain that the original versions of Genesis were written before Kings, Judges and Samuel. Those last six named books probably constitute the earliest portions of the "old testament" which were written down. There is sufficient contradiction in the descriptions of the deity to suggest, however, that many of the books which precede Kings, Judges and Samuel were at least oral traditions long before. The bible frequently demonstrates that monotheism was not a Hebrew idea until at least the time of the Babylonian captivity, if not later. The progression was more or less, "the god we prefer," "the supreme god" (the idea they got from the Persians), "the only true god"--and finally arriving at "the one god."

Despite the self-serving version of history promulgated by the Jews, the Hebrew tribes in Palestine before the Babylonian captivity were very likely illiterate Semites with no written traditions. Aramaic was the the lingua-franca of the middle east in those days, the Aramaens being a Semitic speaking people who excelled in commerce, and not only subsisted peacefully among their war-like neighbors the Assyrians and the Akkadians, but even worked diligently to create a commerical empire without reference to politics or military conquest. They largely succeeded. During the Babylonia captivity, the Hebrew tribesmen would have been exposed to the ancient culture and myths of the Akkadians, and very likely derived the stories of Genesis from them, particularly from the Gilgamesh Epic. The reference to a world flood probably refers to the Black Sea--the Black and Caspian Seas were joined in a very large fresh-water basin which was created by the drainage from the retreating glaciers of the last period of glaciation. That event had probably driven to the south the tribes which overcame the Sumerian civilization, the first temple society in the middle east.

The Medes and Farsi (i.e., the Persians) were Aryan tribesmen who began to migrate into the eastern portion of the middle east between 4,000 and 3,000 years ago. A priest named Zarathustra (in Greek, Zoaraster) who lived long before the writing of the "new testament" is credited with being the seminal influence for the monotheism of Judaism, Chrisitanity and Islam. You can find information on Zarathustra at the Religious Tolerance website. First the Medes, and then the Farsi/Persians overran the Assyrians and the Chaldeans, and finally the Egyptians. Their version of Zoarastrianism held that all gods were simply evil spirits, except for their one, true god. As a reasonable estimate places the life of Zarathustra at about 1000 to 600 BCE, he certainly does predate the "new testament."

I don't think i need to add to what AU has just written, apart from underlining what he says by pointing out that the "Jesus cult" in christianity has only arisen within the last 150 years. It simply did not exist before the revivalism of England and the United States in the early and mid-19th century.
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CoastalRat
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2004 10:39 am
Set, I am not sure what you mean when you state that the "Jesus cult" has only arisen in the last 150 years. If you are saying that somehow Jesus was not associated with Christianity until the last 150 years then you will forgive me for saying I think you have deluded yourself. If there is some other meaning that I am missing, I would love to have you explain it to me. Thanks.

Also, I have no qualms with you explainations that early Jewish history was an oral history and that the books of the OT were not written in the order that we have them preserved. We will have to just disagree however when you claim that the Bible suggests that monotheism was not a Hebrew idea until the Babylonian captivity. The idea was there. It is simply that more often than not the Jewish people found reason to doubt that there was only one God and drifted away to other supposed gods for a variety of reasons. Much like many people do today. We search for a god that will agree with our views, not one who demands we agree with his. (That is my personal aside as to what is wrong in a lot of churches, temples, etc, etc today)

I'll check out the site you mentioned when I have time.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2004 11:32 am
The emphasis on "Jesus" as a personal conduit to god and salvation dates only from the 19th century. Christianity before that time had no particular focus on the need for a "relationship" with Jesus, as opposed simply to a relationship with god, in order to attain salavation.
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dauer
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2004 12:00 pm
I don't believe my religion is the "right" religion. It's just the right one for me. There are many paths that try to go to the same place. They're all worth what we make of them. They can be worth nothing and they can be worth everything.

I'm not saying all religions are the same. They are very different. Morals vary. Rituals vary. Beliefs vary. But they're all heading in the same direction when we do not bend them to serve other purposes. They're aiming for a connection with something greater. I am generalizing, I know. I'd say it is true of the major world religions, however.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2004 01:18 pm
It is rather difficult to speak of billions of people without generalizing. While not at all convinced of the need which you articulate, i acknowledge it being felt by billions, and do not find generalization to be objectionable in this context.
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dauer
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2004 01:50 pm
I'm not suggesting a common need of man, but just a common goal of religion. Taken a step further this goal may be pushed forward by a need to connect with something greater, but I'm not trying to establish that.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2004 02:00 pm
You get no argument from me, Boss, i'm just along for the laughs . . .
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Lekatt
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2004 08:56 pm
Re: Is belief in a supreme being a religion. .
au1929 wrote:
Is a belief in the existence in God what we generally term a religion I wonder. I believe in the existence of God partly on an emotional basis and partly because I fervently wish it to be. However, as far as religions are concerned I think they are all hokum. Each one claiming, follow me I am the way to salvation. Perhaps one should cover all bases and join them all on the off chance that one is telling the truth. Nah.
For those who are believers why do you believe your religion to be the one. Is it because you were born to it or because you came to it out of strong conviction or?


Most people can't separate God from religion, but they are not the same. Religion is the way people "see their God", worship Him, and the doctrine which they will follow. While God is just God. Nearly everyone tries to explain to others how God thinks, acts, and expects, but do they really know?

I know a Higher Intelligence (HI) exists because I have experienced it. I don't expect others to believe as I do, or even to believe me. That is not necessary.

My experience is that HI is love. No more, no less.

Everyone must find out for themselves the answers to the eternal questions. Skeptics know no more than Believers. It is only through personal experience that we learn.

Please don't call each other names, or insult the beliefs, hurt the feelings of others. If you would be like (HI) then you would be love also.

Love
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