26
   

San Bernardino shooting: At least 14 people killed

 
 
layman
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 16 Dec, 2015 11:18 am
@puzzledperson,
Quote:
What signs? And where did you read that? Do you have a link? Everything I've seen suggests that the bomb factory was confined to the garage....Presumably the mother wouldn't visit the garage if she were at work or otherwise absent when these activities took place, or in the middle of the night, or against the orders of the only man in the residence after having been raised in an intensely patriarchal society.


I can't find a link, but I watched live broadcasts from journalists who were all over the apartment (not just a bedroom) suggesting as much (gunpowder, tools, etc.).

The FBI is investigating the mother. To my knowledge she has not been charged yet, and may never be. Metal working tools, such as a hammer, vise grips, etc., along with shooting targets and the like, were found in the front seat of her car. She wasn't living with her son, he was living with her (she owned the house). She belonged to a pro-caliphate muslim faction. A number of middle-eastern men were seen coming and going from the apartment, but not reported because of PC concerns by the witnesses:

Quote:
Then came the man who had been working in the neighborhood and said he noticed a half-dozen Middle Eastern men coming and going in recent weeks, but according to the local TV report decided not to say anything to authorities since he did not want to “racially profile those people.”

Robert Spencer, an Islam expert and author of the JihadWatch blog, said the same thing happened in the 2007 terror plot. Spencer wrote. “This is what 14 years of pounding in the media from Hamas-linked CAIR and the left has done: make people think that defending themselves and their country is somehow wrong.”


http://www.wnd.com/2015/12/p-c-witness-ignored-middle-eastern-men-at-farook-home/#ujvZ9TuCQmyQLzKw.99

The father said the son had made his pro ISIS, anti-jewish, sentiments loudly known, apparently years ago. But the pro-caliphate mother "couldn't" have known? Two bottom-feeders were immediately hired to tell the world that she had no clue that anything was going on. Why the immediate need for a double-mouthpiece?

People with the intense feelings and beliefs that these two killers had will invariably share them with those they trust.

I would never "presume" that she knew nothing, but if you want to, help yourself.

Quehoniaomath
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 16 Dec, 2015 03:02 pm
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/-vza1oZ0Mc0/hqdefault.jpg
0 Replies
 
Quehoniaomath
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 16 Dec, 2015 03:03 pm
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/dQf4u1w8ZOagP9zplPr_HnE2gim9KAioprN9w5zC-FbVqXbes8ZF2UbTH-pfsM5Viv1TeZjTXroy2WUmTgl8hQ=w426-h240-n
0 Replies
 
Quehoniaomath
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 16 Dec, 2015 03:04 pm
http://freedom-articles.toolsforfreedom.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/san-bernardino-mass-shooting-active-shoooter-drill.png
0 Replies
 
Quehoniaomath
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 16 Dec, 2015 03:06 pm
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/GP8ucEqpAHY/maxresdefault.jpg
0 Replies
 
Quehoniaomath
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 16 Dec, 2015 03:07 pm
http://beforeitsnews.com/contributor/upload/455106/images/12311265_1043451539040725_9188286586482199442_n.jpg
0 Replies
 
puzzledperson
 
  2  
Reply Thu 17 Dec, 2015 04:35 am
@layman,
Millions of Americans target shoot. And the last time I checked, hammers and vice-grip pliers are sold in stores across the nation for perfectly ordinary uses. So why should the presence of targets and tools in a shared car indicate knowledge of criminal intent?

So, half a dozen Middle Eastern men visit a home where a Middle Eastern man lives, over the course of a week. What's to report? I read your link fully just in case there was something more than this, but didn't find it. If a White family had half a dozen White visitors over a week, or a Hispanic family had Hispanic visitors, or a Black family had Black visitors, is that suspicious? If it had been reported, would the police or the FBI have considered that to have met the evidence threshold for opening an investigation or even an inquiry, much less surveillance or a search warrant? Isn't it a bit racist, to assume that whenever Middle Eastern men congregate, terrorism may well be involved?

You write that the mother "belongs to a pro-caliphate Muslim faction". She belongs to the Islamic Circle of North America. From the Wiki page:

"ICNA strongly condemned the 2010 Times Square car bombing attempt and immediately called for punishment to the fullest extext of the law for anyone who engages in terrorism. [19] In 2011, ICNA welcomed President Barack
Obama's counter-terrorism initiative. [20] . . . ICNA responded to ADL's allegations by saying that its conferences have always been held under the objective of rejecting extremism. ICNA's statement also supported the defence of human rights for Jewish and Israeli people, but demanded the defence of human rights for Palestinians as well. [27]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Circle_of_North_America

So, it isn't exactly clear to me that the mother would have supported the views allegedly held by the son, much less the actions, had she known about them in advance.

Here's the quote from the father about the son:

"He said he shared the ideology of al-Baghdadi to create an Islamic state, and he was obsessed with Israel," the father told a reporter in an interview outside the home of his other son, Syed Raheel Farook, in Corona, California.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2015/12/06/dad-san-bernardino-shooter-agreed-isil-obssessed-israel/76890108/

Assume that the mother also knew about these views, though it isn't clear that the ideology to create an Islamic state means anything more than that. (Is Saudi Arabia an Islamic state? Is Qatar, where CENTCOM has its overseas headquarters?) Does that mean that the mother was a co-conspirator? Does that mean she knew about criminal activity? Are we even sure that the attack was premeditated?
layman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Dec, 2015 05:32 am
@puzzledperson,
Quote:
Does that mean that the mother was a co-conspirator? Does that mean she knew about criminal activity? Are we even sure that the attack was premeditated?


I just meant what I said, which I will repeat. Unlike you, I would not PRESUME that she couldn't have known.

She is under investigation. I will await the outcome of that investigation to see what emerges.
layman
 
  0  
Reply Thu 17 Dec, 2015 06:22 am
@puzzledperson,
Quote:
Are we even sure that the attack was premeditated?


Are you suggesting that the mother couldn't have had any clue because it was just a rash, spur of the moment, impulse to go slaughter people?

Are you suggesting that despite having assault rifles, handguns, and a complete arsenal of ammunitions and home-made, remote-controlled bombs, that we should feel sure that these poor, law-abiding muslims had no intention of EVER attacking anyone?

That this was just an unfortunate circumstance of extreme "workplace" harassment so abusive that they just suddenly snapped and did something they would NEVER have considered otherwise, that the idea?
puzzledperson
 
  3  
Reply Thu 17 Dec, 2015 06:42 am
@layman,
I never presumed that the mother of Farook couldn't have known: I said it was an open question and that the publicly available evidence that I'm familiar with doesn't support the presumption that she did know. Here's what I wrote:

"Does that mean the mother didn't know? Not at all. But in and of itself, the fact that she shared a residence isn't sufficient to conclude that she knew about it."
layman
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 17 Dec, 2015 06:47 am
@puzzledperson,
Quote:
But in and of itself, the fact that she shared a residence isn't sufficient to conclude that she knew about it."


Standing alone, of course not. But what is "it?"

Quote:
publicly available evidence that I'm familiar with doesn't support the presumption that she did know.


Presumption? No, of course not. Reason to suspect? Hell, yeah.
puzzledperson
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Dec, 2015 06:58 am
@layman,
I'm saying that lots of Americans have AR-15 or similar semi-automatic rifles, handguns, and often multiple firearms in a single household. The term "gun nut" applies to millions and most of them are not Muslims. Bulk purchases of ammunition are also common among those who target shoot regularly because they thereby obtain bulk discounts.

Possession of multiple pipe bombs is certainly more troubling, though the reporting on this is both contradictory and unclear.

But if the 12 to 15 reported pipe bombs exist and were built with a terrorist plan, and the attack was part of that plan, then why weren't they used? Why were they sitting in storage back home?
layman
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 17 Dec, 2015 07:02 am
@puzzledperson,
Quote:
But if the 12 to 15 reported pipe bombs exist and were built with a terrorist plan, and the attack was part of that plan, then why weren't they used? Why were they sitting in storage back home?


Great question. From what I understand they left a remote-controlled bomb at the scene, but it didn't detonate when they tried after they left. They also rolled one off in front the cops cars chasing them, but it didn't go off.

They must have had other plans, for the ones they left behind, eh? It's said they returned "home" after the slaughter, perhaps to rest, or maybe to get more bombs and head out to blow-up other targets, who knows?

Quote:
Bulk purchases of ammunition are also common among those who target shoot regularly because they thereby obtain bulk discounts.


Yeah, sure.

What did they have? 6,000 rounds? 10,000? Something like that. At a mere $1 per round, or so, who wouldn't go out and invest that kinda money so they could do some "target practice" in the remote future, eh?

One thing that is not so "common" here is slaughtering a shitload of people and trying to bomb a shitload more by remote control, eh? Or do "millions of Americans, most of them not muslims" do that too, ya figure?
puzzledperson
 
  4  
Reply Thu 17 Dec, 2015 07:16 am
@layman,
layman wrote: "Presumption? No, of course not. Reason to suspect? Hell, yeah."

The FBI would be remiss not to investigate common residents at a home where subjects of a terrorist investigation lived. And speculation by the general public is scarcely surprising.

Some of the remarks by members of the media have been irresponsible, however. I've heard quite strong conclusions offered, that probably wouldn't have been made if a serial bomber, arsonist, rapist or murderer was White and non-Muslim. Even if he was a KKK member who lived with a mother who was known to espouse racist sentiments, I think public media statements would be more cautious. Not only for legal reasons, but also because it might stimulate vigilante violence and perhaps more generalized violence. Muslims are easy targets these days. If I were the mother, I'd have an attorney on tap ready with lawsuits against Judge Jeanine, FOX News producers, and others.
layman
 
  0  
Reply Thu 17 Dec, 2015 07:25 am
@puzzledperson,
Quote:
Even if he was a KKK member who


Well, so far as I know, the KKK has not been online soliciting people to come join them in genocide and/or killing people randomly on American soil, which they have PROMISED to do.

Are you suggesting that terrorist acts by people who have recently visited the middle east should be put in the same class as a KKK member or the Unibomber?

That there's "just no real difference?"
0 Replies
 
puzzledperson
 
  2  
Reply Thu 17 Dec, 2015 08:20 am
@layman,
AR-15 rifles use small caliber .223 ammunition. Google "bulk ammo" and you'll find ads selling as much as 25,000 rounds at a time to individuals. Cabela's, a retail sporting chain, sells .223 ammunition in 1,200 round lots. The more you buy, the less you spend per round. That's particularly important with small caliber rounds used for target shooting. The home was variously reported to have contained from 3,000 to 7,000 rounds.

Please explain to me how that much ammunition would lend itself to an office shooting, and why the vast bulk of it was left behind if that were its purpose.

Yeah, that's a great terrorist "plan": go to your own workplace party, where you are known; get into an argument; go home and grab your guns, but leave most of your bombs and ammunition behind in storage; walk in with your face visible and commit mass murder, but leave plenty of witnesses; drive back to your home, where police are waiting for you because your coworkers recognized you when you shot at them. Robert Ludlum should write a novel: "The Dumb-ass Ultimatum".

layman wrote: "One thing that is not so "common" here is slaughtering a shitload of people..."

In the United States in the last seven years alone, more than 900 deaths from mass shootings have occurred. After domestic violence, workplace shootings are among the most common:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/02/21/mass-shootings-domestic-violence-nra/1937041/

The San Bernardino shootings are "only" sixth in terms of fatalities:

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/deadliest-mass-shootings-u-s-history-n437086

layman: "... and trying to bomb a shitload more by remote control"

Well, in some accounts remote control, and by others timers. Early accounts said they threw a bomb out at the police, but later accounts said it wasn't actually a bomb. In any case, if most of the bombs and ammunition were left behind in storage, how can they have been part of a terrorist plan? And if none of the bombs exploded, how much in the way of connections or expertise (or even basic competence) could they have had?
puzzledperson
 
  2  
Reply Thu 17 Dec, 2015 09:13 am
@puzzledperson,
I need to correct an error. It appears that Farook was recognized by coworkers through his voice and build, despite wearing a ski-mask.

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/12/02/458196942/active-shooter-situation-reported-in-san-bernardino-calif
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Dec, 2015 10:55 am
@puzzledperson,
Just a plain old case of workplace violence, eh? The wife didn't even work there.

I would tell you to join Obama's spin team, but that won't work. He's already said that it's being investigated as a terrorist act.

It's a shame the Fort Hood terrorist, like the wife here, blew the whole cover by pledging eternal allegiance to ISIS, eh?

But maybe you could join the poor innocent victim's bottom-feeding team and proclaim their innocence to the world on TV, eh!?

Q will agree with you, I'm sure. None of this even happened if you ask him.
layman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Dec, 2015 11:11 am
@puzzledperson,
Quote:
In any case, if most of the bombs and ammunition were left behind in storage, how can they have been part of a terrorist plan?


You just answered your own question. They were saving them for more attacks the next day. And the day after that, and....
Quehoniaomath
 
  0  
Reply Thu 17 Dec, 2015 03:31 pm
@layman,
Quote:
Q will agree with you, I'm sure. None of this even happened if you ask him.


excuzeee me?
 

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