Evolution or Creation

it was good

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dont worry im not bothered Wink

others may be though Smile

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who was the best man do you think??

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well i have to go...its 11 oclock and i have to go to school 2moro

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im rooting for bush all the way

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ok my friend
have fun Smile

bye

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Darwin was not the first to propose a theory of 'evolution'. Simply put it is the idea that the present species originated from earlier, less complex creatures. Up to that point natural science, like the Church, held that form was fixed and everything 'had it's place' designated by nature or the supernatural.

What Darwin (and Wallace, don't forget Wallace) DID was provide concrete evidence that this was not the case. Multiple species could, and did, arise from an earlier, singular species that adapted to changes in environment or died out to be replaced by those that did.

So, from one species of finch on the Galapagos Islands a number of new species arose in order to exploit the different conditions on each island. In the immutable model only one species could exist AND ONLY IF THE CONDITIONS THAT FAVOURED IT CONTINUED.

Once this idea was expounded (and supported by solid evidence) there was a paradigm change. Naturalists and scientists were seeing the same things, but in a new way that made better sense. It's a bunch of BS to say that this idea was evil or perverse or intended to smash religion. The animals that Darwin observed didn't change, the physical environment hadn't undergone some profound change (mountains turning into seas, seas becoming glaciers) - just one man saying, 'Here's a way of interpreting these things'.

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Rex writes:

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The Bible says of itself... that it was written by God's inspiration. It says the word of God is "God breathed". In other words, God breathed and there it was. This is why it is called the "Holy" Bible. So are you saying God does not understand science?

I think God is the author of science so I would not dare to presume that He doesn't understand it. I also believe those who wrote down the words in the Bible had no knowledge of modern science and therefore phrased things in words that they could understand. Even the two creation stories in the first two chapters of Genesis arrange the order of creation differently.

I don't believe that God dictated every word of the Bible--if He had it would be much more clear and comprehensive than what it is. Do I believe that the scriptures were divinely inspired? Yes I do. Do I believe those who wrote the Bible had intimate knowledge of God? Yes I do. Do I believe the Holy Spirit speaks to believers through the words in the Bible? Yes I do. Do I think the Bible must be believed literally with 21st Century understanding? No I do not, as it is obvious even in the scriptures that the way they wrote about God changed as they learned and evolved and perceived Him differently.

That is my belief however, my friend. If you believe it differently, I would not presume to say your faith is wrong.

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If God created science, then does that mean he does not interfere? His interference would defy science, as he does not go according to the laws of the physical world. While that may be a possibility, there's still the possibility that science is a method we use to learn about the physical world by observation and experimentation, and that god has nothing to do with this.

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You people would do the world a hell of a lot of good if you would just get away from your "beliefs" about the nature of REALITY...and concentrate on helping to make the world a better place in which to live.

This nonsense of picking and choosing which of your god's dictates you will honor and which you will dismiss is absurd...and it is at the core of damn near all the self-inflicted misery suffered on this planet.

Whether there is a God or not...we humans have our destinies in our own hands. If we want Earth to be Hell...it will be Hell; if we want it to be Heaven; it will be Heaven. But the only way we can know for sure what we want it to be...is by what it is.

We've got to do it...not some god.

Besides...most of the beliefs being shared here are bearly distinguishable from beliefs in Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny.

Grow up.

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RexRed wrote:

If people would open their eyes and just read the Bible they would realize that it teaches both evolution and creation.

I've read the Bible cover to cover more times than I'd have cared to, and have much of it memorized, yet I don't see things your way.

Perhaps the whole seeing things your way is a more critical element to your position than merely opening one's eyes and reading.

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Second verse: And the earth BECAME without form and void and darkness was on the face of the deep... How did it "become" this way?
Would God create a dark and formless/void heaven and earth? Of course not! Well later in the Bible it explains that Lucifer the angel of "light" from the first creation fell. He shut out his light (we have the evidence on this earth to prove the fall)... i.e. Asteroid impact... the ice age... Life was already created when Lucifer fell... remember, in the first verse... The heavens and the earth BECAME that way, dark and void.

This is just wordplay, in other translations it just says "was", not "became" and could well be either.

See KJV

And the earth [b]was [/b]without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

In that version, it was created and was dark. Not that becoming versus having been dark makes a difference, but this illustrates that you are attempting to make a case for science through mere wordplay, your whole scientific theory is contingient on which version of the Bible you read and creative interpretation that assumes things that are unstated (for example, you simply assume that life was created before the light, even if the Bible says nothing of the sort).

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Craven...

...don't you sleep???

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Got work to do, and I post while waiting for things to finish running.

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Frank, are you suggesting that the Easter Bunny isn't god?

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Lucifer writes

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If God created science, then does that mean he does not interfere? His interference would defy science, as he does not go according to the laws of the physical world. While that may be a possibility, there's still the possibility that science is a method we use to learn about the physical world by observation and experimentation, and that god has nothing to do with this.

I think God probably doesn't interfere for the most part, but we may not be privy to know whether he does or doesn't. There are so many accounts of miracles, both ancient and modern, that most believers do believe God is involved. A miracle accomplished by natural means is no less a miracle--witness a story of a young child who fell out a window in a high rise and quickly prayed, "God catch me". When she hit the sidewalk with minor scrapes and bruises, the scientific reasoned fortuous coincidence of the strong wind that broke her fall. Believers said miracle.

So why then doesn't God intervene to protect everybody from deadly tornados, hurricanes, floods, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, deadly drought? Maybe he tells us how to avoid or how to protect ourselves from these natural conditions or forces of nature, and we don't listen. From what we understand of God, he can and does accomplish his will through whatever means he chooses, but he generally does not protect us from the consequences of our choices. Those who build their houses on an earthquake fault should expect earthquakes to occur. And so far as the scriptural reference that faith that can move a mountain, one must always consider that the moved mountain would come down on top of somebody who didn't much want a mountain there.

Bottom line, I think God's law includes nature and science and all the natural rhythm, cause and effect etc. that can be scientifically measured and understood and a whole lot more that we haven't evolved enough to be able to know and understand yet. I think we know only a tiny fraction of science that there is to know.

And Frank, no worries. I won't attempt to convert you to Christianity or any other belief and there is no need to be threatened or to be contemptuous of those who do not share your belief. I think it is possible for believers and non-believers to coexist peacefully in the scientific world. As I've said, most of us Christians have no problem reconciling science and religion.

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I can't believe these discussions are still going on in 2004. I can't get my mind around the existence of a being, that has existed for eternity, and has the requisite knowledge required to have created the entire universe, all it's beings and lifeforms, and planned the exquisite balances of nature. I just can't comprehend how anyone could believe that.

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RexRed wrote:

My Bible in Genesis does not say God created man and woman in seven days... It says God formed man from the dust of the ground... THAT IS EVOLUTION! Darwin got his theory from the Bible.

Darwin didn't invent the idea of evolution. Anyone can see that things evolved just by walking outside and looking around. What Darwin identified was a key *mechanism* by which things evolved.

The Bible doesn't talk about mechanisms, it only says God Formed, God Created, God Is. In other words, magic happened, magic happened again, and magic is magical.

No matter how much you strecth the allegory of the Bible, you cannot gain any evolutionary knowledge from it.

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Wilso wrote:

I can't believe these discussions are still going on in 2004.

At the rate we're going, we'll still be having these discussions in 4004.

Wilso wrote:

I can't get my mind around the existence of a being, that has existed for eternity, and has the requisite knowledge required to have created the entire universe, all it's beings and lifeforms, and planned the exquisite balances of nature. I just can't comprehend how anyone could believe that.

I can get my mind around that idea, but the part that doesn't make sense to me is why any such being would have to "tweak", or even "do" anything. It would be irrational for an Eternal, Omniscient, Omnipotent being to have to take such droll action after having done it all right in the first place. Omniscience and Omnipotence supersede the essence of life as we know it.

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Ros writes:

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I can get my mind around that idea, but the part that doesn't make sense to me is why any such being would have to "tweak", or even "do" anything. It would be irrational for an Eternal, Omniscient, Omnipotent being to have to take such droll action after having done it all right in the first place. Omniscience and Omnipotence supersede the essence of life as we know it.

I used to struggle with that one too. And then I realized the one quotient that science can neither observe or measure but is no less valid is the factor of love. A God who gave free will to humankind ran the risk humankind would screw up a perfect creation. And it did. But even as we sometimes choose to let our children or others learn from the consequences of their choices and sometimes we can't bear to do that and rescue them, well maybe that's what the ancient theologian meant by 'man was created in God's image.'

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Quote:

I think God probably doesn't interfere for the most part, but we may not be privy to know whether he does or doesn't. There are so many accounts of miracles, both ancient and modern, that most believers do believe God is involved. A miracle accomplished by natural means is no less a miracle--witness a story of a young child who fell out a window in a high rise and quickly prayed, "God catch me". When she hit the sidewalk with minor scrapes and bruises, the scientific reasoned fortuous coincidence of the strong wind that broke her fall. Believers said miracle.

So why then doesn't God intervene to protect everybody from deadly tornados, hurricanes, floods, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, deadly drought? Maybe he tells us how to avoid or how to protect ourselves from these natural conditions or forces of nature, and we don't listen. From what we understand of God, he can and does accomplish his will through whatever means he chooses, but he generally does not protect us from the consequences of our choices. Those who build their houses on an earthquake fault should expect earthquakes to occur. And so far as the scriptural reference that faith that can move a mountain, one must always consider that the moved mountain would come down on top of somebody who didn't much want a mountain there.

Bottom line, I think God's law includes nature and science and all the natural rhythm, cause and effect etc. that can be scientifically measured and understood and a whole lot more that we haven't evolved enough to be able to know and understand yet. I think we know only a tiny fraction of science that there is to know.

And Frank, no worries. I won't attempt to convert you to Christianity or any other belief and there is no need to be threatened or to be contemptuous of those who do not share your belief. I think it is possible for believers and non-believers to coexist peacefully in the scientific world. As I've said, most of us Christians have no problem reconciling science and religion.

Miracles in the past are not necessarily true. How do you know that Jesus did rise from the dead and ascended? We only know because some guy in the past said it was so. We may have written accounts of those, but those are secondary sources, which are usually biased from perspective. That's just like the people today who have claimed to see god, when really, it's just the certain part of their brain that gets heightened. I don't know about miracles happening by natural means--unless they're things that amaze people. Like the slow, gradual process of evolution. The formation of a single cell from a pattern of amino acids and proteins. Mixing Na2S with AgNO3 and watching it precipitate and turn black. Some people consider miracles because they are not scinetifically explained. There is a misconception since just because a miracle can't be explained scientifically, that doesn't mean it will not be explained in the future.

You can use the idea that god is somehow directing us to avoid suffering and such, but really, it's just common sense and logic. God won't tell you where there's an earthquake fault, you'll have to find it yourself, using observations and science. If you've got reasoning and common sense, why would you still need to listen to God? If you wanted love, would you sit around and pray or get up and go meet people?

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