6
   

Is Richard Dawkins a scientist?

 
 
layman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Nov, 2015 02:50 pm
@Tuna,
Quote:
I went looking for a reliable and objective viewpoint expecting to find that very situation. I did find such a source. And you're wrong.


Well, Tuna, it really should be self-evident, eh? What we have here is an oxymoron. Any claim that disparagement of Dawkins is NOT due to envy, jealousy, pettiness, etc, CAN'T be made by anyone with " a reliable and objective viewpoint."

Such people are OBVIOUSLY just jealous, envious, and petty, caincha see?

Tuna
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Nov, 2015 03:49 pm
@layman,
Quote:
Well, Tuna, it really should be self-evident, eh? What we have here is an oxymoron. Any claim that disparagement of Dawkins is NOT due to envy, jealousy, pettiness, etc, CAN'T be made by anyone with " a reliable and objective viewpoint."

Such people are OBVIOUSLY just jealous, envious, and petty, caincha see?

Well yes, it's either envy or religious fanaticism. I'm not sure which one PZ Myers is. Maybe both.

0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  3  
Reply Thu 19 Nov, 2015 03:58 pm
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:
So what do YOU propose as cause of first life if not random chance?

The nonrandom laws of chemistry, and perhaps some of the nonrandom laws of physics, acting on some not-yet-known environment. An analogy might be the formation of snowflakes. They don't need a conscious snowflake-creator to emerge, either. I can't be more specific than that because we know too little about the first emergence of life. But the answer to your question is that I would propose some accumulation of incremental change, acting on molecules that can self-replicate.

Leadfoot wrote:
And that is a great example of Dawkins' hypocrisy. He condemns kicking the can down the road and then tries doing it himself.

If you had actually read the argument you are calling hypocritical, you would know that he doesn't try to do it himself. All he does is point out that this particular way of kicking the can down the road reduces to a gradual process of incremental change, and hence does not require a supernatural creator.
layman
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 19 Nov, 2015 04:03 pm
@Thomas,
Quote:
All he does is point out that this particular way of kicking the can down the road reduces to a gradual process of incremental change, and hence does not require a supernatural creator



My metaphysics is 20 times more better than your metaphysics, chump.

All day.

Every damn day!
Thomas
 
  3  
Reply Thu 19 Nov, 2015 04:22 pm
@layman,
layman wrote:
My metaphysics is 20 times more better than your metaphysics, chump.

I don't know about "better", but your statement is funny because I have no metaphysics. I believe that physics is all there is. No "meta" to it.
layman
 
  0  
Reply Thu 19 Nov, 2015 04:26 pm
@Thomas,
Quote:
I don't know about "better", but your statement is funny because I have no metaphysics. I believe that physics is all there is. No "meta" to it.


You just contradicted youself, Thomas. You have just stated your ontological stance:

Quote:
I believe that physics is all there is


Don't worry, you're not alone. Virtually every devotee of scientism says that. They always seem to think that their particular metaphysical assumptions are just STONE-COLD FACT. No more, no less.
Thomas
 
  3  
Reply Thu 19 Nov, 2015 04:36 pm
@layman,
layman wrote:
They always seem to think that their particular metaphysical assumptions are just STONE-COLD FACT. No more, no less.

You may want to try contemplating the difference between "I believe that ___", which is what I said, and "it is a stone-cold fact that ___", which is the strawman you argue against.
layman
 
  0  
Reply Thu 19 Nov, 2015 04:48 pm
@Thomas,
Quote:
You may want to try contemplating the difference between "I believe that ___", which is what I said, and "it is a stone-cold fact that ___", which is the strawman you argue against.


I was talkin about "they," but that aint even the point.

Point is this here: Ya done announced your ontology (metaphysics), and yes, that is strictly a function of "belief,"--faith, ya might say.

But, see, that aint even metaphysics to you. That's just "physics" which, presumably, deals in FACTS, not speculation and belief.

I mean, if ya wanna presume such a preposterous thing, anyway.
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 19 Nov, 2015 06:53 pm
@Thomas,
Quote:

Leadfoot wrote:
"So what do YOU propose as cause of first life if not random chance?"

Thomas replied:
The nonrandom laws of chemistry, and perhaps some of the nonrandom laws of physics, acting on some not-yet-known environment. An analogy might be the formation of snowflakes. They don't need a conscious snowflake-creator to emerge, either. I can't be more specific than that because we know too little about the first emergence of life. But the answer to your question is that I would propose some accumulation of incremental change, acting on molecules that can self-replicate
I'm not even sure you are capable of understanding that you just re-stated my case for me. Just substitute 'sub-atomic structure' for 'molecules' and our arguments are identicle. Like I said, there isn't a thing you or Dawkins can say to refute this argument that God's coming into existence is just as likely as your own, and that by your own reasoning.

Now about that Easter bunny.
Thomas
 
  3  
Reply Thu 19 Nov, 2015 08:23 pm
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:
Like I said, there isn't a thing you or Dawkins can say to refute this argument that God's coming into existence is just as likely as your own, and that by your own reasoning.

I disagree with the "just as likely" part. But I'll let that slide, because the more important point is that Dawkins doesn't have to refute the possiblity of your scenario. The hypothesis Dawkins seeks to refute is that "there exists a superhuman, supernatural intelligence who deliberately designed and created the universe and everything in it, including us." [Emphasis mine.] He states clearly, at the outset, that his case is specifically against supernatural creators.

By contrast, what you describe is a natural creator, consistent with Dawkins's counter-hypothesis: "Any creative intelligence , of sufficient complexity to design anything, comes into existence only as the end product of an extended process of gradual evolution." Remember, "gradual evolution" needn't necessarily be Darwinian. Any process of gradual change over time will do, including the process by which snowflakes grow out of thin air. As long as your hypothetical creator emerges out of post-Big-Bang plasma by a gradual process consistent with the laws of nature, Dawkins is fine with that as far as The God Delusion is concerned.

Leadfoot wrote:
Now about that Easter bunny.

What about it?
Leadfoot
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 19 Nov, 2015 10:00 pm
@Thomas,
If Dawkins attempted to use your flawed logic as his argument, he is exposed as a duplicitous double talking bullshiter by the title of his work. He is claiming, is he not, that God is a delusion.

By your logic it should have been titled "The All Natural God". We both know what Dawkins meant.
Leadfoot
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 19 Nov, 2015 10:07 pm
@Thomas,
Quote:
Leadfoot wrote:
"Now about that Easter bunny."

What about it?

Now that you have made the case that an 'all natural' God is possible and since you both maintain that the Easter bunny is just as likely in Dawkins universe, give us the plausible scenario for its existence. This is where we started, remember.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  0  
Reply Thu 19 Nov, 2015 10:23 pm
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
He is claiming, is he not, that God is a delusion.


I haven't read the book. I have looked at what purports to be "a clear and accurate summary of the book" published in The Journal of Evolutionary Philosophy.

A couple of excerpts:

Quote:
If God's only interference in nature was to establish the initial conditions of the universe and then leave events to unfold in a natural way, could it then be said that there is no conflict between science and religion? Dawkins says no, they would still be in conflict, and he promises to explain why in chapter four.

Chapter four was a dismal failure. Much of what Dawkins had to say in the first three chapters, especially his argument against agnosticism, depended entirely on his promise to prove in chapter four that God was too improbable to exist. Dawkins based the entire credibility of his book on this chapter, and the only proof that he delivered was a rhetorical hypothesis....

Without a shred of evidence to support it, the only difference between cosmological evolution and any other kind of creation myth is that it is cleverly shrouded in scientific words. Dawkins does this a lot throughout his book. He takes questionable concepts and shrouds them in scientific words in order to give them the look of scientific legitimacy. Intelligent design theorists use the same tactic.

http://www.evolutionary-philosophy.net/review_god_delusion.html

Hmmm, maybe this is why some claim he is not a scientist, eh? They all say "intelligent design" theories are not science, don't they?

Quote:
Dawkins does this a lot throughout his book. He takes questionable concepts and shrouds them in scientific words in order to give them the look of scientific legitimacy. Intelligent design theorists use the same tactic
layman
 
  0  
Reply Thu 19 Nov, 2015 11:16 pm
@layman,
Some more excerpts:

Quote:
He [says he] just wants to debunk the idea of a supernatural intelligence who deliberately designed and created the universe and everything in it, including us....Dawkins now attacks agnostics...Without any evidence, the reasonable thing to do is to not take a position. Unless, according to Dawkins, you are talking about God.

He then splits agnostics into two groups, those who won't commit yet for lack of evidence, and those who believe it is impossible to know. The difference between the two is whether the question of God's existence can ever be answered using science. Dawkins claims that it can be.


Science can answer the God question! Who knew? I thought science only dealt with "natural" things, and not the "supernatural" things he is seeking to disprove. I guess these "supernatural" things must be natural after all, eh? Science can learn all about them.

Turns out, it aint God who is omniscient and omnipotent, it's SCIENCE. It can do anything, and know everything!
layman
 
  0  
Reply Fri 20 Nov, 2015 12:08 am
@layman,
I think I might kinda like this part best. It explains it all:

Quote:
Dawkins now introduces the ‘multiverse’ theory, which says that beyond our universe there exists perhaps an infinite number of other universes, each having a different variation in the laws of nature.

He suggests that our universe might eventually collapse into a single point and then re-explode to form a new universe with different laws of nature. If this process continued indefinitely then it might create every possible configuration of universe. The more configurations, the more probable that at least one would have the right conditions for life.

A multiverse might seem extravagant in terms of the sheer number of universes involved, but if the original universe was governed by only a few simple laws, and if the mutations between the universes were small enough, then the whole process would be much more probable than an all-powerful supremely-intelligent creator.


Well, there ya have it then! The seemingly improbable is now probable, even inevitable, ya know. It's SCIENCE, I tellya!


Leadfoot
 
  0  
Reply Fri 20 Nov, 2015 05:32 am
@layman,
The 'multiverse' is the ultimate answer to existential questions for atheists. It is for them what they claim God is for theists.

Ya gotta love it...
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Nov, 2015 05:42 am
Quote:
Fallacy: Ad Hominem Tu Quoque

Also Known as: "You Too Fallacy"

Description of Ad Hominem Tu Quoque

This fallacy is committed when it is concluded that a person's claim is false because 1) it is inconsistent with something else a person has said or 2) what a person says is inconsistent with her actions. This type of "argument" has the following form:

Person A makes claim X.
Person B asserts that A's actions or past claims are inconsistent with the truth of claim X.
Therefore X is false.
The fact that a person makes inconsistent claims does not make any particular claim he makes false (although of any pair of inconsistent claims only one can be true - but both can be false). Also, the fact that a person's claims are not consistent with his actions might indicate that the person is a hypocrite but this does not prove his claims are false.


http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem-tu-quoque.html
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Nov, 2015 05:49 am
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
The 'multiverse' is the ultimate answer to existential questions for atheists.


Horseshit. What an idiotic claim, even by your low standards. It does demonstrate, however, that you just came here, as is the case with so many holy rollers, to vilify atheists.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Nov, 2015 05:56 am
@FBM,
Quote:
Fallacy: Ad Hominem Tu Quoque

Translation: Heads I win, tails you lose.

But seriously FBM, Dawkins arguments regarding the implausibility of a God were - LAME.
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Nov, 2015 06:00 am
@Leadfoot,
Translation: I fucked up my logic with a tu quoque fallacy, so here's a red herring fallacy to try to cover it up.
 

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