mY fIrSt ToPiC

I would say that all religions stem from the same basic principles. I would also say that all the prophets that have apparently been sent to earth had the same ideas, many of which were misunderstood by many followers. I would suggest reading far more religious texts than you have already, including the mystic texts from Christianity, Judaism and Islam. I'll help you out if you are interested.

Thanx for reading..

Hey memyselfandi, wow u are only 14? What made u do so much research on Islam as well as other religions? What interested u especially about Islam?

hey Qkid,
thanx for reading.....
its just that i like to know what is going on.....
i like to know what i believe in.....
is it right or wrong....??
its not just islam ...its everything,
i think all humans should do such a thing.....
i mean i go to school...come back.....do my H.W...have fun....go to sleep thats so boring....fun is fun...but knowing whats going around is much more important...
i dont think that i know much yet.....im still looking up to learn more...
thanx

o0memyselfandi0o

I must say I'm amazed with the brain you hold.For 14 years old, I'm totally amazed.

Allow me to keep what you have written for my personal use, translate it to Arabic and use it else where.


I liked the "things" you said it amazed you but of course there are much more.



For your information after that day, all the people would convert to Islam in the earth, but It would not accept from them because it is considered the deadline, it is not just a sign.

Please if you need any information, do not hesitate to contact me.

I am afraid you have too quickly dismissed Christianity on the basis of some very prevalent and misinformed postulations regarding the validitiy of Paul and his relation to the "four gospels", the salvation story, the writing of the Bible (it was written in Greek, not Latin, one of the most common languages of Jesus' time and location), and all kinds of other issues. However, most of these issues I believe (if you set your mind to it, as it seems you desire) you will discover on your own. I highly recommend reading literature written in defense of Christianity for your information on Christianity, just as i would recommend reading lit. written in defense of any topic for information on that topic.

Now, to direct a question to you to ponder. Islam basically teaches that God waves his hand and declares forgiveness upon some and not on others, it is very deterministic meaning that all people are eternally destined for either paradise or hell. However, you state that Islam holds everyone responsible for his or her actions, which is a true statement within Islam thought as well. There is clearly a huge paradox in these two statements. How can a person be held responsible for his or her actions while being eternally determined to be saved or condemned at the same time? You also run into the problem of a God who creates people who are destined for hell, not a very compassionate and loving God (qualities bestowed upon Allah before every sura). These issues plague Christianity as well, but if studied carefully, are answered in Jesus' life, death, and resurrection which I would gladly explain if given the opportunity.

"The Bible says Jesus cried out in a loud voice beseeching God for help on the cross: "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Matt. 27:46) Does that sound like Jesus to you?"

In case you don't know, Jesus quoted Psalm 22 when he cried that. By taking upon himself the entire multitude of the world's sin upon him, he took the forsakeness we all deserve for our action. Interestingly enough, if one is to believe that God is the giver and sustainer of life, then forsakeness from God must necessarily result in death. Thus, Jesus died completely and utterly forsaken by his Heavenly Father whom he did nothing but serve selflessly and perfectly. Taken upon himself willingly "Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done." Luke 22:42, Jesus serves as the perfect sacrifice, taking upon himself the punishment we as sinners and rebels against God's will, revealing God's capacity to satisfiy the demands of justice and at the same time his love for his creation. Jesus' resurrection (which has been the cause of the most speculation in the history of history, and yet still has MUCH more support for its historicity than for its falseness) thus proves that Jesus, being God, was not defeated by death and thus death itself is defeated and Jesus is the firstborn of God's new creation, in which we can participate if we accept the fact that we cannot earn our salvation and can only recieve God's grace through Jesus. THAT, in a very short synopsis, is the salvation story.

Islam's answer for the problem of sin? God decides who he is going to save and who he isn't without any retribution for sins committed against him by those he decides to save and hell and damnation for those he does not save.

Cavfancier: There are clear distinctions between faiths. They do not all stem from the same thing as many in today's post-modern world would like to believe. Just as an example, the disparate difference between Islam and Christianity's definition of and answer to Sin that I just posted about. To say they are all the same is a cop-out and does not attempt to study them and instead use the generalization "all the religions are the same, they all get at the same point" Let's be honest with ourselves and recognize the real differences between faiths and then decide which proclaims truth.

Glad_to_be_muslim wrote:



I am really quite curious about this since I try to keep up with such things. Can you provide any info on where this comes from? Unless my scientific knowledge is way off, the only way for the sun to "rise" from the west would be for the earth to reverse its rotation. For that to happen, the earth's rotation would have to at some point stop completely in order to begin again in the other direction. The result of that stoppage would create all kinds of survivability questions.

So please back up this quote that supposed scientists say the sun will some day rise in the west. I really want to know if some quack is out there saying this.

hi all....
sorr if i didnt replay fast......kinda bussy
any wayz...i appreciat all of u passin by

dear neccessarygrae ,


Well sure god does ....there has to be justice....god..well ANY god should not forgive all humans....god will forgive to those who ask for forgivness.
God's hands r always open for those who ask for forgiveness .





Ok..u look kinda messed up here......
what i think..
If god gave us a special different mind then other creatures.....do think its there cuz its just there .??
well i dont....we have the choice .... destiney doesnt control what we do..we know what right and whats wrong....we choose our own path..
EXAMPLE : if a student says....i wont study.. .. let destiny take its path !
do u think that kid will pass the tests......well no...but he had the choice.

what i think ...its just that god knows how ppl think ( he created them any way )
he knows that some'll think good...some'll think bad
he's justice....he know who diserve to go to hell and who diserve heaven .



ill do more research......ill bring more !!

THINK ABOUT DEATH CUZ LIFE IS ONLY ( if we're lucky) 80 YEARS !
wich is nearly 80,000 dayz ( very short time....for me it is)

its a very short time to think... to make a desicion.

ill be BACK !

If u need more info then visit this site
http://www.arrahman-arraheem.com, or
http://alhudapk.com

I never said that all religions stem from the same 'thing'. I specifically said 'principles'. How those principles have been interpreted and used is entirely another issue. Also, how do you know that my conclusion is not based on a rather intense study over the years of most of the world's religions, including their mystic texts?

memyself: You say you believe in free choice yet you want to say you subscribe to Islam. Islam is dogmatically deterministic, nothing happens (including your choices) unless God wills it to be so. Islam also tries to promote that humans are free to choose God's will or not choose it, but these two thoughts together are paradoxical. You can't have free choice while believing that God controls every happening and action (again, including your choices). A orthodox muslim will commonly look at something such as a murder or crime and declare that it was the will of God that that person do such an act, in effect, that God willed (caused) that choice to be made. Is that free will? Is that choice?

cav: you're correct, I have no way of knowing what kind of research you have done. And sorry I misquoted you on 'principles'. The fact is though, religions don't stem from the same principles. Christianity's principles revolve around Sin and Grace and the incarnation of God in Jesus. Judaism is based on principles of Law (the Torah). Islam bases its faith on the belief in the manifestation of God in the Qur'an. Now, these three principles are clearly not the same. This doesn't even address the Buddhist quest for Enlightenment or the Hindu advancement along a class structure. A common argument is that all religions embrace such ideals as "love" "truth" "justice", which again is not fact. And even if Judaism embraces "love", it is not defined the same as Christian "love" or Islamic "love". So my question to you is What exactly are these principles that all religions stem from? I'm interested...

neccessarygrace, while it might be just a semantic point, what I see in your definitions of the major religions here is an illustration (and a good one) of how different tools and methods are used by various religions to achieve the same goal. I see your problem with the "common argument", but, again, I believe that the goals of the prophets were the same, in terms of personal enlightenment, and learning to love all people. That was the original principle. Let's take Judiasm as an example of where later revision, based on politics, took over. The oldest living text discovered from the Old Testament has been translated and published in a book called 'The Book of J', edited by Harold Bloom. In this text, Yaweh is portrayed and defined as a dual god, posessing, in perfect harmony, both the male and female principles. This was a god of love, VERY similar to the Christ. The nature of the Hebrew god to an avenging patriarchal figure was a rewrite by future rabbis. All mentions of the female side of the Jewish god were eradicated, except for remnants preserved by the Kabbalists, who were persecuted for their beliefs, and now, strangely enough, are quite popular in Hollywood. Anyway, I'll try to get more in depth later, but I have to scurry and get some work done.

You make a good point in your example of Yahweh, but what you seem to miss in describing God as a god of love is the "male" side of this dualistic God. This would seem to be (and i haven't read the same texts as you, so correct me if i'm wrong) the side that pursues and desires Justice (a continual theme throughout the prophets, especially Amos, Hosea, and Isaiah). If this is correct, then Jesus clearly continues on the tradition of a god of love AND justice and embodies this "original" Yahweh, for he teaches of a God who loves his children as well as desires justice done upon those that disobey God. Now, if this female side of God was eradicated, as you say, then Jesus is a bit of an enigma if he's not the embodiment of the true living God, correct? For unless he had access to writings of this "eradicated female side of God" then he must have had some other access, for he taught it and lived it. He was clearly persecuted for what he taught! Jesus was a Jew, and in many ways continued the tradition of a God of both love AND justice in his teaching. So there seems to be two options here. Either this dualistic God that you speak of was not "eradicated", but instead ignored, disobeyed, and rebelled against (as the prophets speak of) and Jesus brings back this true, original God again (from his knowledge of the scriptures). Or this dualistic God of love and justice was "eradicated", or inked out by the patriarchs in an act of politics. In this case, are you saying that Jesus was a Kabbalist? In either case, Jesus stands out as a possible point of contention for those who claim that a God of love and justice, a male and female God, was inked out by the Jewish patriarchs, for obviously at the time of Jesus, this kind of God was taught about and preached on by Jesus. This is an EXTREMELY interesting topic, perhaps that should be discussed on a different board, but one I would enjoy quite a bit. Thanks for the thoughts and I would love if we could continue this discussion.

What is the meaning of destiny (Qadar) and decree (Qadar)?

The Arabic word translated as "destiny" is qadar. In its derivations, this word also means "determination," "giving a certain measure and shape," "dividing," and "judging." Muslim scholars of Islam define it as "Divine measure," "determination," and "judgment in the creation of things."

In one sense, Decree and Destiny mean the same thing. In another sense, however, Destiny means to predetermine or preordain, while Decree means to execute or put into effect. To be more precise, Destiny means that everything that exists, from subatomic particles to the universe as a whole, is known by God Almighty. His Knowledge includes all space and time, while He Himself is absolutely free both of them. Everything exists in His Knowledge, and He assigns to each a certain shape, life span, function or mission, and certain characteristics.

Consider the following analogy: Authors have full and exact knowledge of the book they will write, and arrange its chapters, sections, paragraphs, sentences, and words before writing it. In this sense, Destiny is almost identical with Divine Knowledge, or is a title of Divine Knowledge. It is therefore also called the "Supreme Preserved Tablet" (or the "Manifest Record"). Destiny also means that God makes everything according to a certain, particular measure and in exact balance:

"God knows what every female bears and what the wombs absorb and what they grow. And everything with Him is measured." (13:8)

The universe's exact measure and balance, order and harmony, as well as that of all it contains, clearly show that everything is determined and measured, created and governed by God Almighty. Therefore, Divine Destiny exists. Such assertions as determinism, which is upheld by many people and even some Marxists, to explain such an obvious universal order and operation are tacit admissions of Destiny. But we have to clarify one point here: According to Islam, absolute determinism cannot be used in the context of human action.

Destiny and man's free will, which marks the farthest point of perfection of one's belief and submission, is something related to the inner experience and spiritual state of a believer, so it is not something indicated by science or theory. Man has free will, and is enjoined to follow the religious obligations. He cannot by any means ascribe his sins to God. Divine Destiny exists so that the believer does not grow proud of his good acts by ascribing them to himself. Man has free will so that the rebellious carnal self does not rid itself of the consequences of its sins by ascribing them to Destiny, and the pious person conceitedly ascribe his good acts to himself alone.

While it may be admissible for people to relate some misfortunes to Divine Destiny, so as not to be driven to despair in the face of calamities, no one can be absolved from his sins and exempt from his obligations by attributing everything to Destiny. So, belief in Destiny has been included among the principles of faith to preserve man from self-conceit, and man's free will is recognized as the ground of his sins.

Man is completely responsible for his sins, because it is he himself who wills to commit them, and then does so. Sins are the cause of much disorder and destruction, so they may merit a terrible punishment-to cite an example, a house can easily be burnt to the ground just by the striking of a match. On the other hand, man has no right to boast about his good acts since, in reality, he has little share in them. It is the Divine Compassion which demands good acts and the Power of the Lord which creates them. God guides man to good acts and makes him succeed in willing and doing them, so the cause of a man's good acts is the Divine Will. A man can possess and own them by means of faith and by praying to God to be able to deserve them, consciously believing in the necessity of performing them and being pleased with what God has ordained for him. It is man himself, on the other hand, who causes sins either through capacity and disposition or through choice and preference, just as the pure bright sunlight can cause some substances which are subject to decomposition to go bad and putrefy.


HOW CAN DIVINE DESTINY AND HUMAN FREE WILL BE RECONCILED?

The nature of human free will

Our free will is not visible and does not have material existence. However, such factors do not render its existence impossible. Everyone has two (physical) eyes, but we also can see with our third (spiritual) eye. We use the former to see things in this world; we use the latter to see things beyond events and this world. Our free will is like our third eye, which you may call insight. It is an inclination or inner force by which we prefer and decide.

Man wills and God creates. A project or a building's plan has no value or use unless you start to construct the building according to it, so that it becomes visible and serves many purposes. Our free will resembles that plan, for we decide and act according to it, and God creates our actions as a result of our decisions. Creation and acting or doing something are different things. God's creation means that He gives actual existence to our choices and actions in this world. Without God's creation, we can do nothing.

Question

Is Islamic viewpoint of Destiny and human free will compatible with fatalism?

Answer

Most Western Orientalists accuse Islam of being fatalistic. Whereas, except a small sect-Jabriya-no one in the history of Islam has defended fatalism. Almost all the Western philosophies of history and, to some extent, Christianity with all its sects, are, by contrast, fatalistic and based on the irresistibility of what they call historical laws. The outlines of those philosophies of history may be summed up as follows:

Mankind are in a continuous progress towards the final happy end.

This progress depends on the fatalistic, irresistible laws of history which are completely independent of humanity, so humanity must, in any case, obey these laws, otherwise they are certain to be eliminated.

All the stages, primitive, feudal or capitalistic, through which mankind inevitably pass in the course of time to the final happy end should not be criticized, because mankind have nothing to do other than passing through them.

What is implied concerning the political conditions of time by all such philosophies of history may be this: The present socio-economic and even the political conditions of the world are inevitable, because they were dictated by nature, which decrees that only the able and the powerful can survive. If the laws of history dictated by nature are in favor of the West, the communities that choose to survive must concede to the dominion of the West.


What distinguishes the Quranic concept of history from other philosophies is that, first of all, while philosophers of history or sociologists build their conceptions on the interpretation of past events and present situations, the Quran deals with the matter from the perspective of unchanging principles. Second, contrary to the fatalism of all other philosophies, the Quran lays great emphasis on the free choice and moral conduct of the individual and community. Although Divine Will, emphasized by the Quran, could be regarded as, in some respects, the counterpart of the ?'Geist' in the Hegelian philosophy and of absolute, irresistible laws of history in other philosophies, the Quran never denies human free will. God, according to the Quran, tests humanity in this life so that humanity should sow the ?'field' of the world to harvest in the next life, which is eternal. For this reason, the stream of events-successes and failures, victories and defeats, prosperity and decay-all are the occasions which God causes to follow one another for mankind, to the end that the good may be distinguished from the evil. Testing must evidently require that the one who is tested should possess free will to choose between what is lawful and unlawful or what is good and bad. Thus, according to the Quran, what makes history is not a compelling Divine Will, rather it is humanity's own choice, the operation of which God Almighty has made a simple condition for the coming into effect of His universal will. If this point is understood well enough, then it will be easy to see how groundless are the Western philosophies of history especially with respect to their conception of some "inevitable end."

Thats one of the most hard things i've ever read, and ill never stop reading about,what i wrote is just a glance... ..... if u need more explanation just ask .

J is not an actual text. It is one piece of a breakup of the torah that scholars use based on similar ideas and styles. There is no such document. The torah is like a quilt that represents many different groups. It's almost like an attempt for unification. Deuteronomy has actually been attributed to a text spoken of in II Chronicles 34:14. To say that it was the rabbis altering texts presumes too much. The Talmud speaks of love as well as justice and does its darndest to get around sentencing people to death or supporting violence. It says a sanhedrin that sentences 1 man to death in 70 years is a bloody court. Most of the rabbis were against Bar Kokhba. Akiba was one of the few that supported him. I'm not saying the rabbis were all good, but your theory seems rather thin unless you can give some more evidence. You're just simplifying the politics and sectarianism of the time.

It is clear that there were indeed many groups. Sadducees, pharisees, essenes, zealots, and the boundaries weren't even always religous. The Cairo Geniza has evidence to that effect. The Damascus Document is a secterian document. And I'm sure you are familiar with the findings at Qumran.

Dauer

Sadly, I cannot answer our author's most recent post, but I will address this one, as it is very interesting to me as well. First, for now, we have to separate Jesus as portrayed in the NT from the OT Yaweh figure. Yes, the original concept of the dual Hebrew god would indeed incorporate the masculine philosophy of justice and retribution, tempered by the feminine influence of love and compassion. The base model for Kabbalistic philosophy is the Tree of Life, one side female, one side masculine. From beginning to end, the spots on the tree are defined as: 0. Nothing 1. Crown or summit (god) 2. Wisdom 3. Understanding 4. Mercy 5. Severity 6. Beauty, harmony 7. Victory 8. Splendour 9. Foundation 10. Kingdom 11. Experience. As for whether or not Jesus was a Kabbalist, who knows. We do know however that he was born Jewish, and was privy to these teachings. Perhaps his split with the rabbis was based on how they were twisting the original teachings of Judaism into a patriarchal political bunch of nonsense. It is entirely possible that this was the part of Judaism he wanted to preserve. As for Islam, it also descended from Judaism, starting with the story of Abraham and Hagar. These of course are just the Abrhamic religions, all tied togther to a common mythology and purpose, all sadly used for the wrong reasons through the ages.